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The real lessons of Fallujah

 
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 06:17 pm
L.R.R.Hood wrote:
hobitbob wrote:
Of course, the chaos and violence are the pretty much the result of the US invading, or have you forgotten that?


What exactly do you think was going on there before the US went there?

No "terrorist attacks," little crime, adequate water, food, electricity, etc....
Of course, the people lived in a totalitarian state, but I would hesitate to claim that things are "better" now. Instead one set of hardships have been exchanged for another, and in all liklihood another totalitarian government is likely to be established.

The State Dept had a plan in place to avoid the problems that were precipitated by Iraq's descent into chaos after the fall of the government, but those plans were never given serious consideration due to Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld's insistence that post-war Iraq would turn into 1950s Kansas. Had the US used those plans (which would have required a much larger invasions force, and would have avoided disbanding the Iraqi police and military forces) I suspect that much of the chaos that has regined since the "mission" was "accomplished" would have been avoided.
Instead, Bush and co, seem to think they are actors in a Donald O'Connor, Judy Garland musical where the kids decide one afternoon to "put on a show," and things magically go right.
What many on the far right fail to appreciate is that many of the acts by the Iraqi partisans are actually quite understandable when one considers that they perceive themselves to have been invaded by a hostile power. I would not expect them to act any differently.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 06:19 pm
It was a land of milk and honey and I forgot imprisonment, murder, and torture.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 06:26 pm
au1929 wrote:
It was a land of milk and honey and I forgot imprisonment, murder, and torture.

As I asked above, is it any better now? Is it, perhaps, worse?

Imprisonment: The US forces routinely burst in in the middle of the night, break things, and abduct those who they suspect of being "terroists."

Torture: Those imprisoned by the US and its allies have reported stories of beatings, forced deprivation of food and water, and in several cases, rape.

Murder: The numerous intstances of US troops firng on unarmed civillians are hard to ignore, though many here seem able to do so. In addition, the kidnap and murder trade has become exceptionally lucrative in Iraq. The Republicans would probably view this as a positive example of capitolism, but I beg to differ. In addition, in a society where the rule of law has departed, revenge killings become frequent, and this is exactly what has occurred in Iraq.
0 Replies
 
Fedral
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 07:28 pm
Just a little FYI ... pistoff's source for this wonderfully unbiased article. Rolling Eyes

World Socialist Website : Link

Nice when he is so embarrassed by his true colours that he is ashamed to post a link to it.
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 07:34 pm
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 07:39 pm
Who gives a flying poop where the article came from. Either you debate him on the merits or keep quiet. Nothing like a little red-baiting to remind you of the fifty's and McCarthysm
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 07:57 pm
Quote:
So, what you seem to be implying is that they are "terrorists" becasue they oppose the US' plans?


No, they are terrorists by their actions.

Quote:
Of course, the chaos and violence are the pretty much the result of the US invading, or have you forgotten that?


We are not accountable for their actions of chaos and violence, they are, and they are incorrect to keep the violence going.

Unless they had their head burried in the sand for twelve years they know Saddam was stealing from them due to his uncaring greed.

I don't blame them for being angry and for not knowing how to act in a civil manner when they have lived in chaos for 30 years it's all they know. Still they are responsible for their behavior, to use our invasion as an excuse which most of them are not IMO, is like trying to say we our responsible for the ones that flew planes into the WTC.

So I disagree with the premise that us deposing Saddam equals a continuing pattern of violence against us and even their own people, that should tell you something in itself.

There are those who are instigating the violence that would continue if we pulled the troops out which makes your argument even weaker.
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 08:35 pm
Obvious
Since it is obvious that the US Troops will stay unless there is a massive Shi'ite Uprising against the Occupation and perhaps even if there is one, we will never know if the Insurgents would continue their attacks.

The US Occupation will remain in Iraq no matter the outcome of the US Pres./VP Election. Kerry is part of the Plutocracy as is W. Perhaps with Kerry there would be minor changes in domestic and foreign policies but not major ones in my view.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 08:38 pm
Quote:
We are not accountable for their actions of chaos and violence, they are, and they are incorrect to keep the violence going.

HOw are we not responsible for the atmosphere that led to these actions?

Quote:
Unless they had their head burried in the sand for twelve years they know Saddam was stealing from them due to his uncaring greed.

What has Hussein to do with the fight against a foreign occupier?

Quote:
I don't blame them for being angry and for not knowing how to act in a civil manner when they have lived in chaos for 30 years it's all they know.

Either you are woefully ill informed about life in Iraq over the last 30 years, or merely ill informed in general. Ther was no "chaos" under what was a totalitarian regime.

Quote:
Still they are responsible for their behavior, to use our invasion as an excuse which most of them are not IMO, is like trying to say we our responsible for the ones that flew planes into the WTC.

Straw man argument. You know better than this

Quote:
So I disagree with the premise that us deposing Saddam equals a continuing pattern of violence against us and even their own people, that should tell you something in itself.

Again, a straw man argument. Our deposing Hussein is irrelevent, Our action as an occupying force, where any sort of maintenance of services, both civil and physical, were completely ignore, and where lawlessness haev been allowed to occur, as well as our frequent killings of civillians, as well as the continuation of the fear of abduction, lead the plight of the avearage Iraqi to be little better than it was before.

Quote:
There are those who are instigating the violence that would continue if we pulled the troops out which makes your argument even weaker.

Another straw man, I did not call for the troops to be withdrawn.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 09:52 pm
Quote:
HOw are we not responsible for the atmosphere that led to these actions?


We did not create an atmosphere for them to be violent, they chose to be. And by far not all Iraqi's have chosen to be, the ones who have would be our enemy one way or the other, those feelings were already rooted.

Quote:
What has Hussein to do with the fight against a foreign occupier?


Because most of them are remnants of those who sided with Saddam, to stupid to realize life can be better without him. They were ruled by violence and deprived so now they think violence is their ticket to power. I think it's very easy for them to throw their anger at us just because we are foreigners from the west, prolly has little to do that we are there reworking their government. I don't think they can see past the end of their noses, ingnorant of what can be.

Quote:
Either you are woefully ill informed about life in Iraq over the last 30 years, or merely ill informed in general. Ther was no "chaos" under what was a totalitarian regime.


You're right, their life was all roses before, my mistake.

Quote:
Straw man argument. You know better than this


We disagree.

Quote:
Again, a straw man argument. Our deposing Hussein is irrelevent, Our action as an occupying force, where any sort of maintenance of services, both civil and physical, were completely ignore, and where lawlessness haev been allowed to occur, as well as our frequent killings of civillians, as well as the continuation of the fear of abduction, lead the plight of the avearage Iraqi to be little better than it was before.


We conducted the most humane attack ever, I don't see any room for improvement. You are way off with your blame pattern IMO.

Quote:
Another straw man, I did not call for the troops to be withdrawn.


Agreed, you didn't call for withdrawal, your point is there is violence and chaos because we are an 'occupying force', my point is if we pulled the troops today there would still be violence and chaos so to say we caused it is bogus. Those people have chosen not to make a peaceful transition, we're giving them an opportunity, they are abusing it.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 10:03 pm
Brand X wrote:
Quote:
How are we not responsible for the atmosphere that led to these actions?


We did not create an atmosphere for them to be violent, they chose to be. And by far not all Iraqi's have chosen to be, the ones who have would be our enemy one way or the other, those feelings were already rooted.

We most certainly created an atmosphere that encouraged violence. What else would you consider the effect of an occupation by a hostile foreign power to be?

brandx wrote:
Quote:
What has Hussein to do with the fight against a foreign occupier?


Because most of them are remnants of those who sided with Saddam, to stupid to realize life can be better without him. They were ruled by violence and deprived so now they think violence is their ticket to power. I think it's very easy for them to throw their anger at us just because we are foreigners from the west, prolly has little to do that we are there reworking their government. I don't think they can see past the end of their noses, ingnorant of what can be.

Or might it perhaps be that, with no work, erratic public services (running water, electircity, etc...), and the absence of effective law and order, and occupation by a hostile foreign power, they are attempting in true partisan fashion to make us leave?

brandx wrote:
Quote:
Either you are woefully ill informed about life in Iraq over the last 30 years, or merely ill informed in general. Ther was no "chaos" under what was a totalitarian regime.


You're right, their life was all roses before, my mistake.

I never implied is was. Stop being stupid.


brandx wrote:
Quote:
Again, a straw man argument. Our deposing Hussein is irrelevent, Our action as an occupying force, where any sort of maintenance of services, both civil and physical, were completely ignore, and where lawlessness haev been allowed to occur, as well as our frequent killings of civillians, as well as the continuation of the fear of abduction, lead the plight of the avearage Iraqi to be little better than it was before.


We conducted the most humane attack ever, I don't see any room for improvement. You are way off with your blame pattern IMO.

Killing civillians, breaking into their houses and kidnapping people, failing to provide for social needs is "humane?"

brandx wrote:
Quote:
Another straw man, I did not call for the troops to be withdrawn.


Agreed, you didn't call for withdrawal, your point is there is violence and chaos because we are an 'occupying force', my point is if we pulled the troops today there would still be violence and chaos so to say we caused it is bogus.

OF COURSE there would still be violence if the troops were pulled out. We made the mess, it is our responsibility to fix it. I am really curious how you can think the invasion is not the cause for the unrest?

brandx wrote:
Quote:
Those people have chosen not to make a peaceful transition, we're giving them an opportunity, they are abusing it.

Refresh my memory, what "opportunity" have we given them?
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 10:08 pm
We disagree, good nite.
0 Replies
 
Fedral
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 11:21 pm
You say Fallujah, I say Rambo![/u]
Kathleen Parker
April 3, 2004

I suppose it would be considered lacking in nuance to nuke the Sunni Triangle.

But so goes the unanimous vote around my household - and I'm betting millions of others - in the aftermath of what forevermore will be remembered simply as "Fallujah."

Wouldn't it be lovely were justice so available and so simple? If we were but creatures like those zoo animals we witnessed gleefully jumping up and down after stomping, dragging, dismembering and hanging the charred remains of American civilians whose only crime was to try to help them.

These are the times that try Americans' souls.

By now we're all saturated with the images of the four dead, members of a security team who escorted American convoys carrying food supplies to an ungrateful town. The four were killed by gunmen who ambushed and torched their vehicles before an angry mob, including children as young as 10, hauled out and mutilated the burning bodies.

It is hard at such times to keep one's head, to remain calm, to rise above the impulse to exact immediate revenge. Or to cut and run, as we did under similar circumstances in Somalia not so long ago. But keep our heads we must. Calmly we must transcend the primitive lust that compels ignorant others to mug idiotically for cameras.

Our revenge will be in facing down enemies who, though unworthy adversaries, impede the worthy goal of stabilizing a country whose future may predict our own. To retreat now would merely feed the terrorists' appetite for America's immediate failure en route to her ultimate demise.

Trust me when I say, I sorely want to leave. I want every mother's son and daughter home for dinner tonight. I want no malevolent Islamist fanatic in my thoughts or dreams ever again. I want to roll over and drift into careless sleep, mumbling, "Not this millennium, dear."

Sadly, we have no such option. We've learned that much. Retreating from the kind of evil we witnessed in Mogadishu, Somalia, in 1993, where a mob dragged a U.S. Army Ranger's body through the streets, and now Fallujah serves only to nourish people for whom brutality is a pastime.

Moreover, we've seen the sort of chaos we'd be leaving other Iraqis - the good, decent Iraqi people who trusted us once again - to face alone. We have no choice but to stay the course and fulfill our commitment. That said, it would be nice if the international community would step up to the plate and insist on justice. This isn't just America's war, but America's response to a war that was brought to us.

Fast-forwarding through all the familiar arguments against going to war in Iraq - and at great risk of boring myself into an irreversible nap - suffice it to say that Iraq was, as weapons investigator David Kay reported, in a position to create weapons of mass destruction and historically inclined to do so.

Yes, mistakes were made; intelligence was bad; stay tuned for 9-11 commission revelations to come. But post-Sept. 11, we couldn't afford to hope Saddam Hussein discovered his inner Mr. Rogers, even as he refused to cooperate with U.N. inspectors or to abide by resolutions demanding proof of disarmament.

We live in a terrifying new world - and we're justified in not liking it - but we get no breaks for denial. The terrorists who rained hell on our country two-and-a-half years ago were agents of America's reluctant maturation.

Until Sept. 11, we couldn't imagine that people purposely would fly airplanes into our buildings. Until Tuesday, we couldn't imagine that people we're trying to feed would murder and mutilate us.

Americans have the appealing if self-defeating habit of projecting their values onto others who haven't enjoyed centuries of self-enlightenment. But we learn and mean well.

What we know, and what we tell the rest of the world by our steadfastness, is that we will help even the unworthy; we will not back down from a just cause even when appalled and afraid; we mean what we say.

Still, a well-placed MOAB smack in the Sunni Triangle ... but then, we are not animals. A reel of Rambo will have to do.

Link
0 Replies
 
L R R Hood
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 07:52 am
hobitbob wrote:
L.R.R.Hood wrote:
hobitbob wrote:
Of course, the chaos and violence are the pretty much the result of the US invading, or have you forgotten that?


What exactly do you think was going on there before the US went there?

No "terrorist attacks," little crime, adequate water, food, electricity, etc....
Of course, the people lived in a totalitarian state, but I would hesitate to claim that things are "better" now. Instead one set of hardships have been exchanged for another, and in all liklihood another totalitarian government is likely to be established.

The State Dept had a plan in place to avoid the problems that were precipitated by Iraq's descent into chaos after the fall of the government, but those plans were never given serious consideration due to Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld's insistence that post-war Iraq would turn into 1950s Kansas. Had the US used those plans (which would have required a much larger invasions force, and would have avoided disbanding the Iraqi police and military forces) I suspect that much of the chaos that has regined since the "mission" was "accomplished" would have been avoided.
Instead, Bush and co, seem to think they are actors in a Donald O'Connor, Judy Garland musical where the kids decide one afternoon to "put on a show," and things magically go right.
What many on the far right fail to appreciate is that many of the acts by the Iraqi partisans are actually quite understandable when one considers that they perceive themselves to have been invaded by a hostile power. I would not expect them to act any differently.


Wow. Your decided ignorance amazes me. Yes, it was worse before we were there, and yes it is better now, and getting even better. There are quite a few people in my department of work from Iraq and they all say that things are better, and their relatives living there are happy and hopeful.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 08:32 am
Quote:
We conducted the most humane attack ever


Oh, woe.

Quote:
But so goes the unanimous vote around my household


A breathtakingly representative sample. Did he also poll his co-workers?

Quote:
and I'm betting millions of others


I'll bet millions he's wrong.

And so we are at loggerheads.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 09:28 am
Whenever there's a decline in the death rate in Iraq, whenever there are fewer soldiers killed or maimed than in the month preceding (and it's sure been awhile, now that I think of it), you nearly always see a post in this forum from a right-winger that follows along the line of: Things are going great! Those Iraqis' lives sure have improved! We can sure see the light at the end of the tunnel now!

Well, we've heard about that light before.

Something about a train...

And I don't like to do the inverse either, to jump on every report of a fatality as proof that I am right and all who oppose me are wrong. But given that the mutilated bodies of Americans -- either contractors or CIA guys or mercenaries, depending on what you're reading and hearing -- are being burned and dragged triumphantly through the streets by cheering throngs, then strung from the top of a bridge...

...Well, I think I speak for a lot of people when I respectfully ask the next conservative who might be tempted, in a month or two, or whenever the next lull hits, to write about how we've really turned the corner this time in Iraq -- to instead, perhaps, consider keeping his/her mouth shut.

At least until the troops all come home safely.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 01:27 pm
Quote:
Wow. Your decided ignorance amazes me. Yes, it was worse before we were there, and yes it is better now, and getting even better. There are quite a few people in my department of work from Iraq and they all say that things are better, and their relatives living there are happy and hopeful.

And do they often practice self deception?
0 Replies
 
L R R Hood
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 01:37 pm
No, hobitbob, they don't.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 01:37 pm
The military returning from Iraq that I've talked to say it is far better now than when they first arrived there many months ago. They are proud of what they have done and are doing. They are angry and contemptuous at those who seem to almost rejoice when somebody else gets killed as 'proof' of how terrible it is and how we are losing.

I would like those of you telling us conservatives to just 'shut up' to try to tell THESE guys to shut up. Smile
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 01:42 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
The military returning from Iraq that I've talked to say it is far better now than when they first arrived there many months ago.

I'm sure that for them, it is.

Quote:
They are proud of what they have done and are doing. They are angry and contemptuous at those who seem to almost rejoice when somebody else gets killed as 'proof' of how terrible it is and how we are losing.

That's rather disingenuous of you. I don't know of anyone rejoicing when someone gets killed.

Quote:
I would like those of you telling us conservatives to just 'shut up' to try to tell THESE guys to shut up. Smile

No is telling you, or anyone to shut up. The fact remains that anecdotal evidence is less valuable than an overall picture of a situation. This is best percieved by perusing a variety of sources. The oral histories of recently returned soldiers are a valid part of this process, but certainly not the only piece.

LRR, the same goes for your Iraqi ex-pat friends (and mine as well). their experiences and opinions are part of a larger whole.
0 Replies
 
 

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