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In China, the fourteenth century should be the Ming dynasty

 
 
WBYeats
 
Reply Fri 19 Jul, 2013 07:29 pm
Situation: I'm guessing what era/dynasty/time it was in China in the 14th century:

-In China, the fourteenth century should be the Ming dynasty.

But to refer to a past thing, we need the past tense.

According to the 'SHOULD DO for now; SHOULD HAVE DONE for past' rule, must I change SHOULD BE to SHOULD HAVE BEEN in my sentence? I become more unsure because a change like this would give me the impression that the Ming dynasty didn't exist, though SHOULD HAVE DONE doesn't necessarily tell us something that was possible/expected to happen but didn't.

By the same token, if I'm guess what a person might have been who is dead:

-Mr Churchill should be/should have been a modern writer.

What tense should I use?



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JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Jul, 2013 08:07 pm
@WBYeats,
Quote:
Situation: I'm guessing what era/dynasty/time it was in China in the 14th century:

-In China, the fourteenth century should be the Ming dynasty.

But to refer to a past thing, we need the past tense.

You're not referring to anything that is past, WB. You are describing an historical fact - sort of similar to; The Ming Dynasty should fit right here [pointing to the 14th century] in this historical time line.


Quote:
According to the 'SHOULD DO for now; SHOULD HAVE DONE for past' rule, must I change SHOULD BE to SHOULD HAVE BEEN in my sentence? I become more unsure because a change like this would give me the impression that the Ming dynasty didn't exist, though SHOULD HAVE DONE doesn't necessarily tell us something that was possible/expected to happen but didn't.


Imagine that you had a timeline written on a whiteboard/blackboard/piece of paper and someone put the Ming Dynasty in the 12th century. Now this was an action that you could/can comment on as,

[Name] should have put the Ming dynasty in the fourteenth century [slot/ position].

OR

The Ming Dynasty should have been put in the fourteenth century [slot/ position]

==============

By the same token, if I'm guessing what a person might have been who is dead:

-Mr Churchill should be/should have been a modern writer.

What tense should I use?

The context isn't clear to me but, this SHOULD doesn't seem natural as a guess/epistemic/level of certainty opinion. It sounds more like a denotic/social sense SHOULD, paraphrased as,

It is my considered opinion that it would be a good thing if Mr Churchill could have been a modern writer.
laughoutlood
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Jul, 2013 09:10 pm
@WBYeats,
Quote:
The Ming Dynasty ... WAS the ruling dynasty of China for 276 years (1368–1644) following the collapse of the Mongol-led Yuan Dynasty


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ming_Dynasty

Quote:
From his first book in 1898 until his second stint as Prime Minister, Churchill's income was almost entirely made from writing books and opinion pieces for newspapers and magazines


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill

Quote:

TO WILLIAM BUTLER YEATS




TELL us of beauty! Touch thy silver lyre
And bid thy Muse unfold her shining wings!
Tell us of joy—of those unaging things
Which wither not, nor are consumed by fire,
Things unto which the souls of all aspire!
Sing us the mystic song thine Erin sings,
Her poignant dreams, her weird imaginings,
With magic of thy "Land of Heart's Desire!"


Let others hate!—from lips not thine be hurled
Reproaches; since all hate at last must prove
Abortive, though it triumph for a while.
The gospels that indeed have won the world
Laid their foundations in the strength of love.
Sing thou, a lover, of thy wave-washed Isle



http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poems_(Coates_1916)/Volume_I/To_William_Butler_Yeats
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Jul, 2013 09:46 pm
@laughoutlood,
LOL, WB is not asking for a factual check. He/she is asking for the appropriate language for a hypothetical situation he/she set up.
laughoutlood
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Jul, 2013 10:02 pm
@JTT,
Yeah, but I'm transcendent at the very thought of 'was' and 'could' and just hope everyone enjoys the poetry.

Fix the grammar and state the facts.

LOL

0 Replies
 
WBYeats
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jul, 2013 01:29 am
@JTT,
Thank you, JTT.
Quote:
You are describing an historical fact - sort of similar to; The Ming Dynasty should fit right here [pointing to the 14th century] in this historical time line.


I'd thought of this problem, and I'd thought that a time being something should be permanent truth, and the present tense should be justifiable, but the knowledge of this sentence structure stuck off this thought:

-1895 was the year in which the Sino-Japanese War broke out.

In nine cases out of ten, WAS cannot be changed to IS, though 1895 being that year is indisputable fact.

==============================

For 'Mr Churchill should be/should have been a modern writer.', my meaning is like this:

Look here! Here's a sentence by Winston Churchill, but he says 'blackmails'! In modern English, 'blackmail' is not used in the plural form, is it? But Winston Churchill should be/should have been a modern writer, how come he uses non-modern English in his works?

Which tense should I use?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Jul, 2013 05:48 am
@WBYeats,
Quote:
In nine cases out of ten, WAS cannot be changed to IS, though 1895 being that year is indisputable fact.


In cases like this, I'd say 10 out of 10. This is different than a person giving his opinion about where something sits on a historical scale.

Quote:
For 'Mr Churchill should be/should have been a modern writer.', my meaning is like this:

Look here! Here's a sentence by Winston Churchill, but he says 'blackmails'! In modern English, 'blackmail' is not used in the plural form, is it? But Winston Churchill should be/should have been a modern writer, how come he uses non-modern English in his works?

Which tense should I use?


I have mentioned, a number of times, just how important CONTEXT is.

But Winston Churchill should be/should have been a modern writer, ------->

But Winston Churchill has to be considered a modern writer, so how come ... ?

OR

But Winston Churchill should be considered a modern writer, so how come ... ?


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