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Former CIA station chief detained, convicted for kidnapping Egyptian Muslim cleric

 
 
Reply Thu 18 Jul, 2013 08:05 pm
Hopefully the 1st of a long series...

Convicted ex-CIA chief arrested in Panama
Former Milan station chief detained after conviction for kidnapping Egyptian Muslim cleric in rendition case.
Last Modified: 19 Jul 2013 01:28

A former CIA station chief, convicted in Italy of kidnapping an Egyptian Muslim cleric, has been arrested in Panama, Italian and Panamanian officials have said.

Robert Seldon Lady, the former CIA chief in Milan, entered Panama, crossed the border into Costa Rica and was sent back to Panama where he was detained, according to an Italian official.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, a Panamanian police official said Seldon Lady had been arrested by Panama's border authorities and handed over to Interpol.

The CIA declined to comment.

Italy's highest court last year upheld a guilty verdict against Seldon Lady for the kidnapping of Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr, who was snatched from a Milan street in 2003 and flown to Egypt for interrogation, where he says he was tortured for seven months. 

Nasr says he was tortured with electric shocks, beatings, rape threats and genital abuse.

The imam, also known as Abu Omar, was a resident in Italy at the time of the abduction.

Seldon Lady was given a nine-year prison sentence and another 22 Americans seven-year sentences in absentia for the abduction of the imam.

The Italian trial was the first of its kind against the "rendition" flights practised by the administration of former US President George W. Bush, which have been condemned by human rights groups.

The minister, Anna Maria Cancellieri, asked for the former CIA agent - "Mister Bob" - to be held in Panama and now has two months to request his extradition.

A 2006 amnesty in Italy shaves three years off all sentences meted out by Italian courts, meaning if Lady is brought back to Italy, he would face six years in prison.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 8 • Views: 4,066 • Replies: 93

 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Jul, 2013 08:21 pm
@Olivier5,
I'd like to see the reach go higher.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Thu 18 Jul, 2013 09:00 pm
@Olivier5,
Look like it time to send in seal team 6 once more if need be as you do not treat officers or former Roman officers like that.

Oh sorry wrong era by a few thousands years. I mean US not Roman officers.,,,, Drunk Drunk
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 18 Jul, 2013 10:24 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Hopefully the 1st of a long series...

Spoken like a sociopath who delights in sending innocent people to prison....

My first thought: The moment the US is penalized for capturing and detaining enemy fighters, it immediately becomes legal for us to execute all enemy fighters in cold blood when they try to surrender to us.

Second thought: I think it might be nearing the time when we finally decide to do something about Italy.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 18 Jul, 2013 10:26 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
I'd like to see the reach go higher.

The World might be a happier place if they let us keep our right to capture and detain enemy fighters. But I guess it's their call. If the World wants to deal with the consequences of depriving us of our rights, we're more than capable of delivering those consequences.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 18 Jul, 2013 10:27 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
Look like it time to send in seal team 6 once more

No kidding. And let's not skimp on the collateral damage, either.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jul, 2013 05:22 am
@ehBeth,
Quote:
I'd like to see the reach go higher.

Me too but I doubt the Italians can kidnap W...
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jul, 2013 05:29 am
@BillRM,
I find it strange that Panama, if all places, agreed to arrest him. It looks like he's got no protection from the US government, which must have ways to preasure Panama...

It is not a given that they will extradite him to Italy of course. Lady could also conveniantly 'commit suicide', if the CIA fears he will implicate other agents.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 19 Jul, 2013 05:47 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
I find it strange that Panama, if all places, agreed to arrest him. It looks like he's got no protection from the US government, which must have ways to preasure Panama...
It is not a given that they will extradite him to Italy of course.

Was he there on US business? If not, maybe the US government found out about the arrest at the same time that everyone else did.

Maybe the pressure on Panama is just beginning to start.


Olivier5 wrote:
Lady could also conveniantly 'commit suicide', if the CIA fears he will implicate other agents.

There won't be any fears of that.

But Italy is certainly growing tiresome. It is only a matter of time before the US government starts sharing my views on what needs to be done to Italy.
0 Replies
 
Lordyaswas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jul, 2013 06:35 am
@oralloy,
What level of alleged offence would you go down to before you would find it unacceptable for the USA to kidnap someone off a European Street?

Where do you draw the line?

Would it be fair for Europe to have a reciprocal arrangement?

oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 19 Jul, 2013 06:54 am
@Lordyaswas,
Lordyaswas wrote:
What level of alleged offence would you go down to before you would find it unacceptable for the USA to kidnap someone off a European Street?
Where do you draw the line?

"Level of offense" is the wrong way of looking at it. This is capturing an enemy fighter during a war.

What matters is whether we think the guy is an enemy fighter. There may not be any offense involved at all.

And keep in mind that this was not just the US coming uninvited into a European country and doing this. The US not only had the permission of the Italian government, it was a joint operation that was carried out by US and Italian agents working together.


Lordyaswas wrote:
Would it be fair for Europe to have a reciprocal arrangement?

Sure, so long as they don't get too tiresome with the anti-Americanism nonsense.

Except for Italy. I think it's about time for them to exit history.
Lordyaswas
 
  2  
Reply Fri 19 Jul, 2013 07:44 am
@oralloy,
Please don't try to deflect it.

Italy's highest Court upheld the decision that he was guilty of kidnap.

Why do you object to his arrest and possible deportation to Italy?

It really doesn't matter how YOU interpret either Italian law or international law/deportation.
The nub of the matter is that a CIA officer kidnapped someone from an Italian street, contrary to their law.

You state that this is acceptable. I say you are totally wrong. Italy is a democratic country. When anyone is within its territory, they must abide by their laws or face the consequences.
Whether their agents were complicit is another matter and a useful distraction for some.

Your CIA man kidnapped a person from an Italian street and took him to another country against his will.
To even hint that this is somehow acceptable in the modern world, to me reeks of arrogance.

If democratic countries around the world allowed this to happen without recourse, then they would be failing their citizens and legal residents.
Before you know it, every powerful country would be roaming at will, kidnapping and taking undesirables to a third party country where their undercarriage can be wired up to the National Power Grid.

Take it to the nth degree, you could see British agents kidnapping Amanda Knox and taking her to Camp Bastion, in an effort to beat her into confessing the fact that she murdered someone.

You may not believe she's guilty, but the British Government might disagree, and in your brave new world, you couldn't really complain much about her "rendition", could you.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Fri 19 Jul, 2013 08:03 am
@Lordyaswas,
Sorry I do not care what the highest courts in Italy had rule we should not allow foreign governments to interfere with actions we feel we need to take in order to protect ourselves from foreign threats and we should used whatever means we need to do to teach that lesson that we will not allow that to happen.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 19 Jul, 2013 08:08 am
@Lordyaswas,
Lordyaswas wrote:
Please don't try to deflect it.

I seldom try to deflect anything, and only do it for a good reason. It is unlikely that I will try to deflect anything in this thread.


Lordyaswas wrote:
Italy's highest Court upheld the decision that he was guilty of kidnap.

The United States needs to kill all the members of that court.

If we can manage it, we should also kill their families as collateral damage (especially the children).


Lordyaswas wrote:
Why do you object to his arrest and possible deportation to Italy?

Because he did nothing wrong.


Lordyaswas wrote:
It really doesn't matter how YOU interpret either Italian law or international law/deportation.

Since I was accurately reflecting the Laws of War, it matters quite a bit.


Lordyaswas wrote:
The nub of the matter is that a CIA officer kidnapped someone from an Italian street, contrary to their law.

I doubt Italian law says it is illegal to capture enemy fighters in wartime. But if so, then that law is invalid. It would be just one more reason to destroy Italy.


Lordyaswas wrote:
You state that this is acceptable. I say you are totally wrong.

Like I pointed out to others earlier in the thread, if we are denied our right to capture and detain enemy fighters in wartime, we will instantly gain the legal right to kill all enemy fighters in cold blood when they try to surrender to us.


Lordyaswas wrote:
Your CIA man kidnapped a person from an Italian street and took him to another country against his will.
To even hint that this is somehow acceptable in the modern world, to me reeks of arrogance.

If it is not acceptable for us to capture and detain enemy fighters during wartime, then you better start getting used to us killing all our enemies in cold blood when they try to surrender to us.

That'll solve the Guantanamo problem if nothing else. We can simply go through the camp and exercise our legal right to massacre all the detainees. Problem solved in less than an hour.


Lordyaswas wrote:
If democratic countries around the world allowed this to happen without recourse, then they would be failing their citizens and legal residents.

I might think that being held as a POW is better than being massacred in cold blood when you try to surrender.

But whatever. If you guys choose massacre, we can start massacring.


Lordyaswas wrote:
Before you know it, every powerful country would be roaming at will, kidnapping and taking undesirables to a third party country where their undercarriage can be wired up to the National Power Grid.

During wartime, people get captured (or perhaps massacred).


Lordyaswas wrote:
Take it to the nth degree, you could see British agents kidnapping Amanda Knox and taking her to Camp Bastion, in an effort to beat her into confessing the fact that she murdered someone.
You may not believe she's guilty, but the British Government might disagree, and in your brave new world, you couldn't really complain much about her "rendition", could you.

Yes, in fact I could. Since the UK would be doing grave harm to an innocent person, we would be fully justified in forcing the UK to pay her massive compensation for what they did to her. And of course, that confession would have no legal validity.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Fri 19 Jul, 2013 01:49 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
we should not allow foreign governments to interfere with actions we feel we need to take in order to protect ourselves from foreign threats and we should used whatever means we need to do to teach that lesson that we will not allow that to happen.

Likewise, the rest of the world must teach a lesson to you guys that you're not above the law. It's in your interest too, for if Americans are considered above the law of the nations they travel to, soon they will not be allowed to travel anywhere.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Fri 19 Jul, 2013 01:58 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Likewise, the rest of the world must teach a lesson to you guys that you're not above the law. It's in your interest too, for if Americans are considered above the law of the nations they travel to, soon they will not be allowed to travel anywhere.


LOL we still have the largest economic in the world and a better military then all the rest of the world combine.
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Fri 19 Jul, 2013 02:58 pm
@BillRM,
So what? You can still learn a lesson or two, can't you?
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jul, 2013 11:54 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
So what? You can still learn a lesson or two, can't you?


One thing foreign powers did learn in the Roman era is that you do not harm Roman citizens with special note to Romans who hold offices and that lesson should be taught once more.

A fourth rank nation having a warrant out against a former CIA chief and having him seized by a fifth rank nation is not something we should put up with.
RABEL222
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 20 Jul, 2013 10:18 am
@Olivier5,
You must not have been posting here long. There are certain posters here that are incapable of learning. Their opinions takes on the aura of law no matter how stupid it is. However the country of Italy has a screwed up justice system, not claiming their not right this time.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 20 Jul, 2013 10:19 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Likewise, the rest of the world must teach a lesson to you guys that you're not above the law.

Note that the US is not violating any law when we capture enemy fighters and detain them.

And any attempt to teach us some sort of misguided lesson will not only result in us eradicating those who attempt to teach us that lesson, it will also result in history judging that we were completely justified in doing so.


Olivier5 wrote:
It's in your interest too, for if Americans are considered above the law of the nations they travel to, soon they will not be allowed to travel anywhere.

The only way we will end up becoming "above the law" would be if we ended up conquering the world to prevent your unjust aggression against us.

Were that to happen, being above the law, no one would have the power to stop us from traveling anywhere we pleased.
 

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