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I have felt great emotion in working at the Hippolytus

 
 
WBYeats
 
Reply Sat 6 Jul, 2013 07:35 am
The whole book:
http://www.wudisk.com/v-7b57a8cbc2071824c2c8624508dd4a27-p10.html

In reply to Bertie, who has read the Hippolytus, which was written in the past by Gilbert Murray, Gilbert Murray says 'I have felt great emotion in working at the Hippolytus'.

1. Do you think 'in working at the Hipppolytus' should be considered a past time phrase like 'yesterday'?

2. If yes, do you think HAVE FELT is ungrammatical and should be changed to FELT?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 1,789 • Replies: 24
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MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jul, 2013 07:48 am
2. no
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 10:38 pm
@MontereyJack,
Why are you being so cagey, Jack?
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 10:51 pm
You have problems understanding what "no" means? Is it too ambiguous for you?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 11:00 pm
@MontereyJack,
Why are you being so cagey, Jack?
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2013 11:08 pm
You have problems understanding what "no" means? Is it too ambiguous for you.

We could probably keep this up all night.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2013 11:09 am
@MontereyJack,
Quote:
We could [not the past] probably keep this up all night.


You probably could, Jack.

You probably could have, Jack.

Prone as you are to misleading, offering spurious notions, accusing others of things they didn't say.

0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2013 11:12 am
@MontereyJack,
Quote:
We could probably keep this up all night.


You probably could, Jack.

You probably could have, Jack.

==========

See, WB, above, how either could/can be used. What is the focus/meaning/ nuance of each one?
0 Replies
 
WBYeats
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2013 07:58 pm
A good test!

The full forms can be:

-You probably could, Jack, if you chose/choose to do so. (now)

-You probably could have, Jack, if you had chosen to do so. (past)

Am I correct?
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2013 08:43 pm
I doubt the usage really matters. The main thing here is the treatment of the hippopotamus..... Is it being cared for properly?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jul, 2013 10:12 pm
@WBYeats,
Let me try to describe as many potential possible meanings as I can. I'm tired so ... .

1. X could do this anytime as X is that kind of person.

2. X could do this right now as X is that kind of person.

3 more later

0 Replies
 
WBYeats
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2013 12:46 am
@MontereyJack,
But when the trip has ended, won't you say to your complaining companion?:

-We heard, not have heard, it the whole trip.
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2013 10:32 am
In writing those "examples", JTT, you should have posed them to yourself, not to me. You asked a snarky, ambiguous question, which I answered. You asked precisely the same snarky, ambiguous question again. Which I answered the same way. the questkon then became, are you going to ask exactly the same question a third time, in which case I would respond the same way. Apparently you decided you had been silly enough at that point.

And the fact that "could" can be used in other contexts does not obviate the simple fact that "could", as it historically did, still functions as the past tense of "can", and contrary to your assertion that modals are tenseless, you can't use the ;present tense "can" in those same past situations, so there is in fact a tense difference between them when used to describe past situations.
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2013 10:57 am
Ah, right, I sort of thought "could" was also used as a subjunctive form. Turns out it is, and English past and present subjunctive forms of modals don't indicate tense, but mood. And "could" is, of course, also the past indicative of "can".
You use it however you want, JTT, for whatever esoteric prescriptive ESL purpose you want. I'll use it the common sense way it actually is used.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2013 01:04 pm
@MontereyJack,
Quote:
and contrary to your assertion that modals are tenseless, you can't use the ;present tense "can" in those same past situations, so there is in fact a tense difference between them when used to describe past situations.


The reason for that, MJ, is semantic not syntactic. You can't use 'could' for some past situations where you can use 'can'. You can't used 'can' for some present tense situations where you can use 'could'.

Provide examples of those modals, say, 'should' being used as the past tense of 'shall', MJ. Or 'might' being used as the past tense of 'may' or 'would' being used as the past tense of 'will'.

0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2013 01:13 pm
@MontereyJack,
Quote:
Ah, right, I sort of thought "could" was also used as a subjunctive form. Turns out it is, and English past and present subjunctive forms of modals don't indicate tense, but mood.


I don't follow you. Could you explain further?

Quote:
And "could" is, of course, also the past indicative of "can".


I don't follow you. Could you explain further?
0 Replies
 
WBYeats
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jul, 2013 08:36 pm
-I have done what I could to add my small weight in an attempt to tip the balance on the side of hope, but it has been my puny effort against vast forces.

This is from a book, but the context can't tell me whether COULD refers to past or present, so let's assume there's no context. In English, in 'I have done what I could', what, present or past things, does COULD refer to?
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jul, 2013 08:39 pm
It's past clearly "I HAVEDONE what I could", a past verb form, clearly refers to actions initiated in the past (and possibly but not necessarily continuing in the present) If you were thinking primarily of present continuing activities, it would be "I am doing what I can..." With no context, can or could can refer to virtually anything, from saving money on grocery bills by only buying markdowns, to advocating for a manned space mission to Mars (those are not meant to be an exhaustive listing of possibilities)
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jul, 2013 10:50 pm
@WBYeats,
Quote:
-I have done what I could to add my small weight in an attempt to tip the balance on the side of hope, but it has been my puny effort against vast forces.

This is from a book, but the context can't tell me whether COULD refers to past or present, so let's assume there's no context. In English, in 'I have done what I could', what, present or past things, does COULD refer to?


This is a past event in that the speaker seems to consider their efforts finished. That doesn`t mean that the speaker can`t-couldn`t continue, if the person changed their mind.

Tense is indicated by have done. COULD is a tenseless verb which can be paraphrased as,

I have done what it is possible for me to do to add my small weight ... .

CAN can-could also be used here;

I have done what I can to add my small weight ... .

CAN is a tenseless verb which can be paraphrased as,

I have done what it is possible for me to do to add my small weight ... .
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jul, 2013 10:54 pm
@MontereyJack,
Quote:
It's past clearly "I HAVEDONE what I could", a past verb form, clearly refers to actions initiated in the past (and possibly but not necessarily continuing in the present)


That`s right, Jack, and HAVE DONE is the indicator of tense. COULD only carries modal meaning as CAN could (future) also do.
0 Replies
 
 

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