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What is this "consensus"?

 
 
Reply Fri 28 Jun, 2013 11:16 pm
Does the consensus here refer to that Josephus' original text in any his books contains nothing about the execution of Jesus by Pilate?

Context:
The general scholarly view is that while the Testimonium Flavianum is most likely not authentic in its entirety, it is broadly agreed upon that it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus with a reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate which was then subject to Christian interpolation.[5][6][7][8][9][10] Although the exact nature and extent of the Christian redaction remains unclear[11] there is broad consensus as to what the original text of the Testimonium by Josephus would have looked like.[9]

More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus
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Type: Question • Score: 2 • Views: 436 • Replies: 18
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OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Fri 28 Jun, 2013 11:19 pm
@oristarA,
oristarA wrote:
Does the consensus here refer to that Josephus' original text in any his books
contains nothing about the execution of Jesus by Pilate?
Note that Jesus was not executed;
(until he was taken down from the cross)
his death sentence was executed by killing Jesus.

To execute means to carry out,
or to follow out (like a bar room bouncer).
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jun, 2013 12:08 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

oristarA wrote:
Does the consensus here refer to that Josephus' original text in any his books contains nothing about the execution of Jesus by Pilate?
Note that Jesus was not executed;
(until he was taken down from the cross)
his death sentence was executed by killing Jesus.

To execute means to carry out,
or to follow out (like a bar room bouncer).


Well.
But you haven't answered my question, David.
0 Replies
 
PUNKEY
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jun, 2013 07:59 am
What is confusing is the phrase "would have looked like."

That makes no sense.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jun, 2013 08:05 am
@oristarA,
the answer to your question is in the sentence before the portion of the quote you're asking about

Quote:
it is broadly agreed upon that it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus with a reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jun, 2013 08:17 am
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

the answer to your question is in the sentence before the portion of the quote you're asking about

Quote:
it is broadly agreed upon that it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus with a reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate



Is the part in bold the consensus? Notice that it has pointed out it is broadly agreed that it is Christian interpolation.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jun, 2013 08:19 am
@oristarA,
no - the Christian interpolation happened later

there is broad agreement (aka consensus) that the original contained a reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate
contrex
 
  2  
Reply Sat 29 Jun, 2013 08:24 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
To execute means to carry out,or to follow out (like a bar room bouncer).


This is crap, and it has been explained before. The verb execute also means to kill, especially in carrying out a judicial sentence. You have had this explained before. Why have you started posting this false crap again? Also the bar room bouncer thing is just plain nonsense. Best to ignore this dickweed.

0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jun, 2013 09:54 am
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

no - the Christian interpolation happened later

there is broad agreement (aka consensus) that the original contained a reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate


Then there should have had the original text. But where?
See the following Josephus' text, the Jesus part seems inconsistent with the others (If Jesus really existed, Josephus would have described him very concretely, not so few so unnatural):

Quote:
Chapter 3[edit]SEDITION OF THE JEWS AGAINST PONTIUS PILATE. CONCERNING CHRIST, AND WHAT BEFELL PAULINA AND THE JEWS AT ROME,

1. BUT now Pilate, the procurator of Judea, removed the army from Cesarea to Jerusalem, to take their winter quarters there, in order to abolish the Jewish laws. So he introduced Caesar's effigies, which were upon the ensigns, and brought them into the city; whereas our law forbids us the very making of images; on which account the former procurators were wont to make their entry into the city with such ensigns as had not those ornaments. Pilate was the first who brought those images to Jerusalem, and set them up there; which was done without the knowledge of the people, because it was done in the night time; but as soon as they knew it, they came in multitudes to Cesarea, and interceded with Pilate many days that he would remove the images; and when he would not grant their requests, because it would tend to the injury of Caesar, while yet they persevered in their request, on the sixth day he ordered his soldiers to have their weapons privately, while he came and sat upon his judgment-seat, which seat was so prepared in the open place of the city, that it concealed the army that lay ready to oppress them; and when the Jews petitioned him again, he gave a signal to the soldiers to encompass them routed, and threatened that their punishment should be no less than immediate death, unless they would leave off disturbing him, and go their ways home. But they threw themselves upon the ground, and laid their necks bare, and said they would take their death very willingly, rather than the wisdom of their laws should be transgressed; upon which Pilate was deeply affected with their firm resolution to keep their laws inviolable, and presently commanded the images to be carried back from Jerusalem to Cesarea.

2. But Pilate undertook to bring a current of water to Jerusalem, and did it with the sacred money, and derived the origin of the stream from the distance of two hundred furlongs. However, the Jews[8] were not pleased with what had been done about this water; and many ten thousands of the people got together, and made a clamor against him, and insisted that he should leave off that design. Some of them also used reproaches, and abused the man, as crowds of such people usually do. So he habited a great number of his soldiers in their habit, who carried daggers under their garments, and sent them to a place where they might surround them. So he bid the Jews himself go away; but they boldly casting reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that signal which had been beforehand agreed on; who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally punished those that were tumultuous, and those that were not; nor did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed, and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded. And thus an end was put to this sedition.

3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross,[9] those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day;[10] as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
4. About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder, and certain shameful practices happened about the temple of Isis that was at Rome. I will now first take notice of the wicked attempt about the temple of Isis, and will then give an account of the Jewish affairs. There was at Rome a woman whose name was Paulina; one who, on account of the dignity of her ancestors, and by the regular conduct of a virtuous life, had a great reputation: she was also very rich; and although she was of a beautiful countenance, and in that flower of her age wherein women are the most gay, yet did she lead a life of great modesty. She was married to Saturninus, one that was every way answerable to her in an excellent character. Decius Mundus fell in love with this woman, who was a man very high in the equestrian order; and as she was of too great dignity to be caught by presents, and had already rejected them, though they had been sent in great abundance, he was still more inflamed with love to her, insomuch that he promised to give her two hundred thousand Attic drachmae for one night's lodging; and when this would not prevail upon her, and he was not able to bear this misfortune in his amours, he thought it the best way to famish himself to death for want of food, on account of Paulina's sad refusal; and he determined with himself to die after such a manner, and he went on with his purpose accordingly. Now Mundus had a freed-woman, who had been made free by his father, whose name was Ide, one skillful in all sorts of mischief. This woman was very much grieved at the young man's resolution to kill himself, (for he did not conceal his intentions to destroy himself from others,) and came to him, and encouraged him by her discourse, and made him to hope, by some promises she gave him, that he might obtain a night's lodging with Paulina; and when he joyfully hearkened to her entreaty, she said she wanted no more than fifty thousand drachmae for the entrapping of the woman. So when she had encouraged the young man, and gotten as much money as she required, she did not take the same methods as had been taken before, because she perceived that the woman was by no means to be tempted by money; but as she knew that she was very much given to the worship of the goddess Isis, she devised the following stratagem: She went to some of Isis's priests, and upon the strongest assurances [of concealment], she persuaded them by words, but chiefly by the offer of money, of twenty-five thousand drachmae in hand, and as much more when the thing had taken effect; and told them the passion of the young man, and persuaded them to use all means possible to beguile the woman. So they were drawn in to promise so to do, by that large sum of gold they were to have. Accordingly, the oldest of them went immediately to Paulina; and upon his admittance, he desired to speak with her by herself. When that was granted him, he told her that he was sent by the god Anubis, who was fallen in love with her, and enjoined her to come to him. Upon this she took the message very kindly, and valued herself greatly upon this condescension of Anubis, and told her husband that she had a message sent her, and was to sup and lie with Anubis; so he agreed to her acceptance of the offer, as fully satisfied with the chastity of his wife. Accordingly, she went to the temple, and after she had supped there, and it was the hour to go to sleep, the priest shut the doors of the temple, when, in the holy part of it, the lights were also put out. Then did Mundus leap out, (for he was hidden therein,) and did not fail of enjoying her, who was at his service all the night long, as supposing he was the god; and when he was gone away, which was before those priests who knew nothing of this stratagem were stirring, Paulina came early to her husband, and told him how the god Anubis had appeared to her. Among her friends, also, she declared how great a value she put upon this favor, who partly disbelieved the thing, when they reflected on its nature, and partly were amazed at it, as having no pretense for not believing it, when they considered the modesty and the dignity of the person. But now, on the third day after what had been done, Mundus met Paulina, and said, "Nay, Paulina, thou hast saved me two hundred thousand drachmae, which sum thou sightest have added to thy own family; yet hast thou not failed to be at my service in the manner I invited thee. As for the reproaches thou hast laid upon Mundus, I value not the business of names; but I rejoice in the pleasure I reaped by what I did, while I took to myself the name of Anubis." When he had said this, he went his way. But now she began to come to the sense of the grossness of what she had done, and rent her garments, and told her husband of the horrid nature of this wicked contrivance, and prayed him not to neglect to assist her in this case. So he discovered the fact to the emperor; whereupon Tiberius inquired into the matter thoroughly by examining the priests about it, and ordered them to be crucified, as well as Ide, who was the occasion of their perdition, and who had contrived the whole matter, which was so injurious to the woman. He also demolished the temple of Isis, and gave order that her statue should be thrown into the river Tiber; while he only banished Mundus, but did no more to him, because he supposed that what crime he had committed was done out of the passion of love. And these were the circumstances which concerned the temple of Isis, and the injuries occasioned by her priests. I now return to the relation of what happened about this time to the Jews at Rome, as I formerly told you I would.

5. There was a man who was a Jew, but had been driven away from his own country by an accusation laid against him for transgressing their laws, and by the fear he was under of punishment for the same; but in all respects a wicked man. He, then living at Rome, professed to instruct men in the wisdom of the laws of Moses. He procured also three other men, entirely of the same character with himself, to be his partners. These men persuaded Fulvia, a woman of great dignity, and one that had embraced the Jewish religion, to send purple and gold to the temple at Jerusalem; and when they had gotten them, they employed them for their own uses, and spent the money themselves, on which account it was that they at first required it of her. Whereupon Tiberius, who had been informed of the thing by Saturninus, the husband of Fulvia, who desired inquiry might be made about it, ordered all the Jews to be banished out of Rome; at which time the consuls listed four thousand men out of them, and sent them to the island Sardinia; but punished a greater number of them, who were unwilling to become soldiers, on account of keeping the laws of their forefathers.[11] Thus were these Jews banished out of the city by the wickedness of four men.



More:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Antiquities_of_the_Jews/Book_XVIII#Chapter_3
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jun, 2013 10:07 am
@oristarA,
the part you've marked in blue references the execution of Jesus by Pilate
oristarA
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 29 Jun, 2013 11:10 am
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

the part you've marked in blue references the execution of Jesus by Pilate


Why were you so slow in understanding this? The part in blue is obviously false - an interpolation by Christian, not written by Josephus.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Sat 29 Jun, 2013 11:14 am
@oristarA,
Why are you so rude?

Good luck to you.
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jun, 2013 12:26 pm
@oristarA,
Wow, you were extremely insulting to the only person who tried to answer your question. Was that your intent?
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jun, 2013 12:42 pm
Perhaps he wishes to reduce the number of people willing to reply to his many questions. Rudeness is quite effective in this regard. He was abrupt to me today in another thread.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jun, 2013 01:46 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
And you suggest that you were a functioning member of a law firm, Om. Amazing!
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jun, 2013 08:57 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

Wow, you were extremely insulting to the only person who tried to answer your question. Was that your intent?


Extremely insulting? My apologies.
Mild criticism was what I intended to do. I think I've got the meaning of the word slow in a wrong way.

0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jun, 2013 08:58 pm
@contrex,
contrex wrote:

Perhaps he wishes to reduce the number of people willing to reply to his many questions. Rudeness is quite effective in this regard. He was abrupt to me today in another thread.



Which thread? Would you like to show me?
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Jun, 2013 01:51 am
@oristarA,
oristarA wrote:

Which thread? Would you like to show me?


The one about Jewish Antiquities
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Jun, 2013 10:33 am
@ehBeth,
You, Beth, and everyone should be able to understand the difficulties of negotiating a new language.

Don't be such a baby. Explain the problem.
0 Replies
 
 

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