THE 600TH AMERICAN DEATH IN IRAQ

That's a slick trick. Combine two stories into one to evoke a more emotional response...

The "slick trick" was the propaganda from the Bush neocons that said American troops would be greeted with flowers tossed at their feet by grateful Iraqis.

The guerilla war your hero, King George the Liar, has gotten us into is beginning to resemble the mess in Somalia, only there was an exit strategy in Somalia.

With Iraq, there is no end in sight and no end to the American body bags coming home on a daily basis.

Titus i sympathize with you..but you are not going to change Mg or any other conservatives point of view...war is sick and disgusting..the only thing we can do as americans is continue to protest and vote this warmonger out in November...

Hi willow:

I agree with you. The Bush lemmings will never 'get it.'

I have no problem with war, per se, as long as our way of life or national security is threatened, but that wasn't the case with Iraq and Saddam.

With Iraq and Saddam, it was all about oil and legacy.

Oil, to placate the PNACers, and legacy, to wipe tha stain of illegitimacy away from Bush's stolen election.

600 Americans have now died in Iraq.

Titus,
I have a solemn wondering about Iraq, and the atrocities of Saddam Hussien. I am wondering if he became "in part" the kind of ruler he was, due to the kind of people in Iraq.

Since the United States Military has been there, and we have had reports from media sources by the SCORES--- it has become evident that Saddam Hussien was not the only cruel and barbaric person there:


In a separate attack five American soldiers were killed when a roadside bomb was detonated beside their convoy west of Baghdad, the U.S. army said.
The Falluja violence began when two four-wheel-drive vehicles were attacked by guerrillas on a main road in the town, 32 miles west of Baghdad. A crowd then set the vehicles ablaze and hurled stones into the burning wreckage.
Television pictures showed one incinerated body being kicked and stamped on by a member of the jubilant crowd, while others dragged a blackened body down the road by its feet.
The footage showed at least three people lying dead, while some witnesses said that four were killed.
It was not clear who had been in the vehicles, both four-wheel drives of the type used by foreign contractors, journalists, civilian members of the U.S.-led coalition and some military personnel.
As one body lay burning on the ground, an Iraqi came and doused it with petrol, sending flames soaring.
At least two bodies were tied to cars and pulled through the streets, witnesses said.

"This is the fate of all Americans who come to Falluja," said Mohammad Nafik, one of the crowd surrounding the bodies.

Some body parts were pulled off and left hanging from a telephone cable, while two incinerated bodies were later strung from a bridge and left dangling there.

I am not a student of MidEast culture, and have done only a little reading, over the years; but from what I have read, it takes a very FIRM government to control the factions who live there, and all they must deal with.
I somehow doubt if George Bush had any more knowledge than "I" did, when he allowed this war to go forward.
There just HAD to be a better way... And I think we should STILL seek a better solution, than occupation.

Blindingly obvious.


Thank you for that appeal to the British Colonial Office, ca. 1880. Everyone knows the wogs need a good caning, otherwise they might start thinking they are as good as us, eh?

Hi The Ollady:

From what I read in the online European and Asian media, there is tremendous rage in Iraq toward the USA for invading and occupying their nation.

Yea, Saddam was a brutal thug, a murderer and a despot -- no question about that, but conditions for ordinary Iraqis since the US occupation began have deteriorated dramatically.

Many people no longer have basics they had under Saddam. Like potable water, electricity, and food. Gasoline prices have skyrocketed 300% and many Iraqis can no longer afford to drive. Crime is epidemic.

Of course, these facts are rarely reported in the pro-war, US media, and we're told over and over how Iraqis are tossing flowers at the US military's boots in gratitude. There's a huge disconnect here as the death toll of American soldiers climbs by the day.

From what I've found, indeed there are websites, blogs, and news sources given to such. I don't find them to be in the majority, however.


Nonsense. Insurgency-related violence is nasty business, of course, no denying that. On the other hand, there's no denying that water and sewage facillities, electrical production and distribution, healthcare, education, telephone service, and many other quality-of-life parameters are markedly improved over the Saddam-Regime status quo. Oil production is now above pre-war levels. The private economy is beginning to perk up. Employment numbers are climbing, there is no inflation and the new currency is stable on the World Market. There are no Regime-Sponsored deathsquads roaming the country holding the populace under the Ba'ath Party thumb, either. Of course, more can be, will be, and is being done. 30 years of despotic misrule and infrastructure neglect can't be rolled back overnight ... or even in the first year following the removal of the despotic regime.


Again. nonsense. Gas prices have risen from the ridiculously low Regime-subsidized give-away level, driven now by real open market consideration, but Iraqi domestic petroleum availability and pricing compares quite favorably with that in the region, and infact globally. Some areas, once favored in the distribution of infrastructure product such as water, sewage, and electricity now recieve less than they did under Saddam, and complain mightilly. Many other areas, particularly in Southern Iraq are better off in those respects now than ever they were under Ba'athist rule. As to cime rate, Regime-era figures have no credibility or relevance. However, APART FROM INSURGENCY-RELATED VIOLENCE, the reported craime rates in Iraq's cities is lower than that of many nations. The crime rate in Baghdad is below that of Washington DC or New York, for example.


The 600th US casualty on D-Day, 6 June '44, occurred somewhere around 9:00 AM that morning ... all of which were combat losses. Half of the over-2000 American death toll at Pearl Harbor came about as a result of the sinking of USS Arizona. Over 900 American sailors died as a result of the sinking of the USS Indianapolis in the very waning days of WWII. Over a four-month period, the Germans lost over 600,000 troops at Stalingrad. The deathtoll in Iraq, tragic as it is, is incomprehensibly low for an operation which has liberated 25 million people from one of the most brutal regimes on the planet. Nowhere have I seen any claim that " ... we're told over and over how Iraqis are tossing flowers at the US military's boots in gratitude. ... "; quite the contrary, in fact. I find overall the mainstream media tends to dwell more on the negative aspects than to tout the successes. Of course, given the established leftward tenor of mass media, that's to be expected. A comparison you might find interesting, if somewhat dismaying to your fellow ideologues, would be to stack present-day Iraq vs present-day Kosovo.

Tell ya what ... drag out some independently verifiable, non-partisan-interest-group provided statistics to counter the assertion that Iraqis as a whole, not neighborhood-by-neighborhood, but as a Nation, are not less well off in general. UN statistics, World Health Organization statistics, even Amnesty International statistics will do fine.

That's the spirit Hobitbob. When all else fails a pig headed refusal the face the facts will see us through. :wink:

timberlandko:

Well then, if Iraq has morphed in such a splendid paradise (according to you), then have you considered relocating?

I've read direct flights on Iraq Air are slated to begin from JFK early next year. :wink:

Titus, you certainly have a knack for missing the point and imposing your own interpretation on stuff you find inconvenient to your position. I made no claim of "Iraqi Paradise", nor did I imply such, and your attempt to indicate that other was so is laughable, serving well to discredit your approach and cast doubt on your probity and objectivity. No one claims Iraq is anything other than a work in progress. There is no Utopia anywhere, Progress is being made in Iraq. Progress is being made elsewhere. More needs to be done in Iraq. More needs to be done elsewhere. Some folks are making progress, in Iraq and elsewhere. Other folks complain that there is no Utopia, and/or that such progress as is being made does not mesh with their own concept of the Utopia they wish for.
There's lots of work to be done, there is much to be assessed, reassessed, and adjusted. The naysayers and doomcriers have their agenda, and those folks involved with improving the lot of the Iraqi People have theirs. I have a personal opinion as to which agenda offers more to The Iraqi People.

"The naysayers and doomcriers have their agenda, and those folks involved with improving the lot of the Iraqi People have theirs." timberlandko

I presume the "naysayers and doomcriers" are anyone who disagrees with the paradise spin you've painted on post-war Iraq.

I amd curious though. Do the people "involved with improving the lot of the Iraqi people" include Haliburton?[/color]

It doesn't take a naysayer or a doomcrier to think the situation in Iraq is a disaster. We're handing the country over at the end of June? To whom exactly? The people dancing in the streets over dead Americans?

This fiasco is going to haunt the Bush team, as well is should.

(And no, I don't mean that I think Saddam should still be in charge. I do mean that the way this war was handled is shameful.)

Since of course saying they have water and electricity and fewer crimes than L.A. is a paradise spin.

I think the shameful part is finding out that many of the peoples in Iraq deserved Saddam...

Titus, just where do you get off attributing "Paradise Spin" to my clearly stated position that Iraq is no Utopia, that serious issues remain to be disposed, and that more can, should, and will be done? As I find it improbable you might be lacking in intelligence, I'm left to conclude you simply don't let reality interfere with your prejudices. And of course Haliburton is among those doing the job ... can you suggest an alternative ... a firm with the expertise and resources disposed by Haliburton? I happen to think that the very fact irregularities have been disclosed, and that remedial action has been taken, is indicative of a system which works as it should. If no irregularities had been reported, I'd be more concerned; involve enough people in a big enough project, and inevitably, some folks will find inappropriate ways to involve themselves. Thats what oversight and checks-and-balances are about, and as I see it, they are in place and they are working. So is Haliburton. That can't be said of some NGOs, which chose to cut and run when engaged. There's a war on over there ... one mission has been accomplished, but there remain many other missions to fulfill. Neither the insurgents nor their cheering squad are going to impede those missions.

D'art, I just don't think " ... the situation in Iraq is a disaster." I think its a work-in-progress, it is an endeavor never before tried, it has had both successes and failures, it is imperative, for myriad reasons, that we see it through. I don't deny that the insurgency and its related terrorism is a serious problem. I do not, however, accept the notion that the entire country, or, really, any significant portion of it, is a lawless, chaotic, horror-filled nightmare. There is no quagmire that I can see. There's a job to be done, and its being worked at. In a few months, the Iraqi People, through their autonomous government, whatever its form, will be playing a much larger part in that work ... just as they day-by-day already play an increasing role in conducting their own affairs. I understand you may not agree with my assessment. Others share that assessment with me. Yet others do not hold the same opinion. Time will tell, as always it does, which is the more correct assessment. It is my strong opinion that I and those with whom I align will find ourselves more correct in our assumptions than will those in disagreement with us ... much as was the case during the runup to the reopening of hostilities, and as was the case through the course of major military operations. Little if anything ever goes exactly as planned, and few if any plans encompass every possible contingency. A workable plan is capable of meeting, adapting to, and surmounting unforeseen challenges, and I believe that is precisely what is happening.
Here's another tidbit ... it stands to reason that insurgent activity will show an uptick surrounding the anniversary of the fall of Baghdad, and another critical period will be the time immediately encompassing the handover of authority. I happen also to believe those opposed to the orderly progress of Iraq into the World Community will find significant disappointment. I also figure Syria is going to put some effort into "making nice" with The West, and with the US in particular, in the relatively near future .. the next few weeks. I'm also quite concerned over security issues attendant upon the Athens Olympics, too. Its going to be an interesting summer, even given the foregone-conclusion-boredom of The Democratic Party annointing Kerry their sacrificial lamb and turning him out to be slaughtered.

hobitbob:


My remarks were not intended in a smart alecky way, HB--- not from the standpoint of
good/bad. I was actually referring to humane and inhumane.
I don't know what it is about me that you do not like, but please forego reading my posts, if my thoughts Rankle you so much.

timberlandko,
Here we are again, rebuilding after bombing! Bomb the floor right out from under them then come back and put OUR OWN FLOOR IN, right??
Was it Thomas Jefferson who said 'might does not make right'??
Are we sure he was an American? Hmm, seems history is not one of my best subjects either. Glaringly obvious.

I would submit, theoldlady, that astoundingly fewer floors were bombed out from under any other than Regime figures and functions in Iraq than ever has been the case in any previous military conflict, and that the bombing now going on is directed against the freedom and self-determination of the Iraqi People. At far less cost in American lives and Amreican resources, Iraq could have been converted over the course of a couple of minutes into a knee-deep pile of glazed, glowing, smoking rubble, littered with millions of rotting corpses. With mere conventional weapons, the same could have been accomplished in no more than a few days. The Iraqi People were not attacked by The US, the Ba'athist Regime was our target. Now, the Iraqi people are the targets of the remnants of the Ba'athist Regime and its criminal and terrorist cronies. What is glaringly obvious is that those who bring "might does not make right" into this context have no conception of what American Might entails, nor have they any conception of how sparingly and humanely employed was such might as the US brought to bear in the situation at discussion. The Iraqi People have been liberated, not conquered. What they do with their liberty is their call, but they are being given, for the first time in their history, the opportunity to make that call.

Timber:

Re the situation in Iraq as "a work in progress": So was the Vietnam War for a long time. I will say no more!

D