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The State of Florida vs George Zimmerman: The Trial

 
 
BillW
 
  1  
Sat 29 Jun, 2013 04:44 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

On the issue of Zimmerman's credibility I am biased. We know Zimmerman is a deceitful liar from what went on at his bail hearing, and the exposure of how he and his wife shifted monies between accounts so he would appear indigent and get a lower bail. He lied to his own lawyer, and he let his wife lie to the judge. So, personally, I'm suspicious of anything Zimmerman says unless it's backed up by evidence.


Hell of a bunch of points, I had forgot about these. Can they be brought into the trial? I think so!
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Sat 29 Jun, 2013 04:51 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

They can't introduce that evidence from Zimmerman's past, CI. It's not relevant to the current case.

After the incident with the police officer, he was court ordered to attend anger management classes. He does have a past history of problems with aggressive impulses, but the jury in this case won't hear about that.

It's often the case that the public will have more info than the jury will be exposed to, which is one reason the court of public opinion may differ from the jury verdict.


They can get it in if they can find a way to do it, like with the mixed martial arts being in Zimmermans medical records. Also, if the defense gets stuff in about Martins past. Also, the defense can bring in Martin past if the prosecution is successful in opening up Zimmermans past. Sorta cum se cum sa!
BillW
 
  1  
Sat 29 Jun, 2013 04:54 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

They can't say he lied, but they can, and will, point out his inconsistencies, and they will point to things he said that are either not backed-up, or are refuted, by the other evidence. Then it's up to the jury how credible they find his account.

The defense may claim his thinking was rattled by his head injury, and that's why he was inconsistent.

That's why the testimony of the first chief police investigator will be very important. He had questions about Zimmerman's accounts right after the shooting. He recommended that the D.A. charge Zimmerman with manslaughter, but the D.A. passed on that.


Everyone - even the ones that have been pro Zimmerman - have been asked if he was steady, coherent, clear eyed, etc. Every answer has been yes, except when he was first walking into and in the halls of the jail, hmmmmmmmm.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Sat 29 Jun, 2013 04:58 pm
I want to include some things I have written in another thread:

I have believed all along that this case is not about murder - and, I believe the prosecution has known this too. Murder 2 could have been there if the evidence came out in court, which it hasn't yet. The prosecutor had to include Murder2 in the beginning of the case to find if it was/is true., otherwise, he couldn't bring it in afterwards. So far, it appears to me that Zimmerman did not have a mind to maliciously murder and I don't think he was a racist, but is/was a profiler and soully caused the confrontation.

Unless there is stricking new evidence, murder is out. But, man slaughter is and has been proven to date. The defense has got to do something to remedy this or Zimmerman goes to jail for 2-5 years.

What is on trial here (my opinion) is carrying guns into fist fights, and the confrontation being created by the gun possessor. When this is the evidence, the gun possessor is soully responsible for outcomes - when death occurs, do time! The person who is carrying guns in the world has a very big responsibility to insure outcomes such as this do not occur.

I couldn't remember the correct wording for what the prosecution must proof, but it is related after researching. That term is “depraved mind”. This is (to me) a much more difficult standard to prove than "malicious" - but, in effect, similar. Both have elements of conscious intent well before the fact. Depraved has an element of strong hatred in it - to a "monsterous" level. At this point, I can't see any of this in Zimmermans's actions.

Of course, this is my interpretation.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 29 Jun, 2013 05:13 pm
@BillW,
You are free to interpret this case any way you please - as well as everybody else who has provided their opinions.

I'm waiting until the end of the trial, because we still don't know what more will be revealed about this case.

BillW
 
  1  
Sat 29 Jun, 2013 05:18 pm
@cicerone imposter,
That is only a snapshot as it looks right now - to me, ci. I don't determine a final disposition until the final, and sometimes till after the final. I am not a member of the jury and there is evidence that comes in after the trial that I can use to make my final decision Wink
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Sat 29 Jun, 2013 05:39 pm
Narrative combusts:

http://statelymcdanielmanor.wordpress.com/2013/06/28/the-trayvon-martin-case-update-32-2-week-1-the-narrative-spontaneously-combusts/

Quote:

Following opening statements, the prosecution normally produces a succession of fact witnesses, people who can testify to the facts–the evidence–necessary to establish the elements of the offense and to prove that the defendant committed it. Their ultimate job is to leave no room for reasonable doubt.

But this is the George Zimmerman prosecution: the backwards case.

Normally, prosecutors are careful to fully question each prosecution witness, to obtain all of the evidence their testimony can produce, and also to avoid allowing the defense to reveal evidence left unmentioned, making it look like the prosecution was trying to conceal something. But during the first week of this case, the prosecution has established a pattern of asking only the bare minimum of their witnesses. In virtually every case, defense cross-examination reveals a great deal the prosecutors avoided bringing to light, and in virtually every case, that information either fully supports George’s Zimmerman’s account–which has not changed–casts doubt on The Narrative–which is actually the prosecution’s case–or both.

This bizarre turn of events has required the prosecutors, particularly Bernie de la Rionda (hereinafter BDLR) to treat his own witnesses as though they are hostile witnesses. The prosecution has actually engaged in the extraordinary spectacle of aggressively questioning its own witnesses, trying to get them to ignore, disown or soft-pedal their testimony.

Another interesting–and disturbing–pattern established by prosecution witnesses is changing their testimony in significant and ethically questionable ways. A number of prosecution witnesses have testified to important changes in their accounts that they have never said before, not in multiple law enforcement interviews or depositions. This directly suggests that they’ve not only been coached, but perhaps the subordination of perjury is involved................




long article, good analysis
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Sat 29 Jun, 2013 05:41 pm
Quote:
The prosecution has actually engaged in the extraordinary spectacle of aggressively questioning its own witnesses, trying to get them to ignore, disown or soft-pedal their testimony.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Sun 30 Jun, 2013 10:05 am
@BillW,
Quote:
the mixed martial arts being in Zimmermans medical records..

Wouldn't the fact that Zimmerman had MMA training suggest he should have been able to put up some other defense of himself before he so quickly reached for his gun? He put up no defense by any attempt to fight back--Martin had no marks on his body beside the gunshot wound.

I also heard that Zimmerman had the safety on his gun off. Nancy Grace was carrying on about that.

Zimmerman thought Martin was a criminal type--one of those punks who always managed to get away. Did he really want to shoot him, rather than being in fear for his life? Did the fact that a fight occurred just give him an excuse to shoot him? If that was the case, it would be second degree murder.
roger
 
  1  
Sun 30 Jun, 2013 10:13 am
@firefly,
Zimmerman also had such marital arts training?
firefly
 
  2  
Sun 30 Jun, 2013 10:19 am
@roger,
Quote:
George Zimmerman had been training in MMA in the weeks before Trayvon Martin shooting
By Zane Simon
Jun 28 2013

Physician's assistant reveals that George Zimmerman had been 'training intensely' in MMA in the weeks leading up to his confrontation with Trayvon Martin.

As testimony continues in the trial of George Zimmerman, a physician's assistant, who treated him for his injuries after the shooting, revealed that Zimmerman had been training regularly in MMA. CFNews13 had a summary of her court testimony:

Folgate said she had treated Zimmerman for previous injuries before. She first encountered him in August 2011, and Zimmerman indicated that he had "difficulty with falling asleep and exercising with MMA, but that has not helped."

She said she also treated Zimmerman in September 2011, and at that time he indicated he was involoved in mixed martial arts three days a week.

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/6/28/4475994/george-zimmerman-training-mma-weeks-before-trayvon-martin-shooting
roger
 
  2  
Sun 30 Jun, 2013 10:36 am
@firefly,
Interesting.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Sun 30 Jun, 2013 10:53 am
@roger,
Sort of defeats his testimony about needing help from others.

The guy has MMA training and a gun. He needs help?
firefly
 
  1  
Sun 30 Jun, 2013 11:00 am
Quote:
The new evidence list includes information that Zimmerman trained at a Longwood gym that specializes in boxing and kickboxing.

A webpage for the business, Kokopelli’s Gym, describes it as “the most complete fight gym in the world.”


So, as it turns out, Zimmerman was the one trained in MMA/fighting. Trayvon Martin had no such training. Nor did Martin have a history of aggressive behaviors or problems with aggressive impulses--but Zimmerman had twice been in court for problems with his aggressive impulses, and he had been court-ordered to take anger management classes.

JTT
 
  -1  
Sun 30 Jun, 2013 11:02 am
@firefly,
But you're waiting for the verdict, right?
firefly
 
  3  
Sun 30 Jun, 2013 11:07 am
@cicerone imposter,
I think the screams came from Martin. The screaming stopped as soon as the gun was fired because that bullet went into Martin's heart. If Zimmerman was screaming for help, I would think he would continue calling for help, even after firing his gun, because he had allegedly been beaten and needed help, and because he had just shot someone.

And I think those awful terrified screams came from Martin when he saw Zimmerman's gun and realized what was about to happen to him.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Sun 30 Jun, 2013 11:13 am
@JTT,
Quote:
But you're waiting for the verdict, right?

Yes, I'm waiting for the verdict because I don't know that the state can convince a jury of what I think.

Also, I've said I'm biased about Zimmerman's credibility because of his lying at his bail hearing and his lying to his own lawyer as well as to the court--and the jury won't hear about that.

And I am speculating right now--I want to hear the rest of the evidence from both sides. So far, I don't think the state has made a strong case for second degree murder or disproved Zimmerman's claim of self defense.
roger
 
  1  
Sun 30 Jun, 2013 12:02 pm
@firefly,
Incredible that this is the first I heard of any of this. I had already discarded my first impression of the situation. Now, the second is not quite as firm as it was. Nothing wrong with his training, and I don't know what kind of expertise he may have developed, but I'm reasonably sure there is a reason I'm surprised by the development.

At this point, I'll just try to have faith in the jury.
gungasnake
 
  -2  
Sun 30 Jun, 2013 12:09 pm
Trayvon's Creepy-Ass Father...


http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/conscience-realist/2013/jun/26/tracy-martin-trayvons-father-questioned-over-suspi/

Quote:

FLORIDA, June 26, 2013 — Over the last several months, much has been heard from Tracy Martin, the father of Trayvon Martin.

In February of last year, Trayvon Martin was fatally shot by neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman, who claims that this was done in self-defense. At the time, Martin was unarmed and seventeen years old.

Since then, his history of truancy, firearms-related issues, and handling marijuana — among other things — has come to light. Nonetheless, Zimmerman was eventually charged with second-degree murder and is now standing trial.

Evidence suggests that Zimmerman suffered head injuries the night Martin died, though exactly how and why remains a mystery. What is certain, however, is that the shooting’s aftermath has been highly polarizing. It has also drawn considerable attention to the oft-overlooked central Florida port city of Sanford, where the shooting took place.

In a recent interview with popular black-interest blog The Root, Tracy Martin said that “(y)ou can’t prepare your child to contend with the warped mentality of someone else. You can only teach them to be good and live by the laws of the land. George Zimmerman acted in a deranged way — and all the evidence supports that. I know how society negatively portrays black boys, and my son Trayvon wasn’t naive. He wasn’t blind to stereotypes, prejudice and discrimination. But I shouldn’t have to tell my child to fear walking to the store to get snacks just because he’s black.”

On Monday, according to Good Morning America, Tracy Martin reportedly “cursed at a supporter of George Zimmerman.

SEE RELATED: George Zimmerman’s father writes book on race and the Martin shooting

“The accusation came up as Zimmerman’s lawyer argued to have Martin’s parents banned from the courtroom since Zimmerman’s parents were not allowed to be present for the proceedings. If the judge declined to order Martin’s parents out, the lawyer asked that both sets of parents be allowed be present.”

Yesterday, right-leaning blogger Sundance of widely-read The Conservative Tree House released several photos of Tracy Martin, some of which date back to 2010.

One shows Martin posing with a crowd of people in which, according to the blog, a finger sign denoting Crips membership is visible. Another portrays him standing in a different crowd with a cityscape and raining dollar bills in the background.

In these photos, Martin himself is making some sort of hand sign. Other individuals photographed are doing the same. TCTH identified said signs as gang-related.

A different set of photos features Tracy Martin speaking at a press conference after his son’s death. In the first photo, a tattoo on the side of his neck spelling an undefinable term is readily apparent. A photo taken sometime later, though, reveals that this has been replaced with another tattoo. Rather than a word, two hands clasped in traditional prayer pose are present.

“Here is what happens after the media consultant tells you the financial reward can be better if you improve your image,” Sundance writes.

Later in the article, Sundance uses scanned images of a police report and a text message conversation involving Trayvon Martin to highlight inconsistencies in Tracy Martin’s statements to law enforcement officials.

Despite all of this, the latter remains a popular figure with many social action groups who believe that George Zimmerman should be found guilty. When Robert Zimmerman, George’s brother, was asked if these groups responded to the Martin shooting in a very strong fashion due to fact or personal biases, his answer was clear.

“Absolutely 100% bias,” he said. “The polite word for ‘agenda” is ‘bias.’ In the midst of an investigation, it is normal for few facts to be known because it is essential that the integrity of the investigation is maintained. There are many who profit from perpetuating the idea of racism and are clearly willing to sidestep facts and insert racial narratives because it is in their organization’s interest not to become obsolete.”

Zimmerman also stated that “political correctness combined with deceptive portrayals of Trayvon Martin facilitated sidestepping an uncomfortable question: Could Martin actually be capable of doing what he did to Zimmerman? If one were inclined to believe he was, they would be subjected to accusations of insensitivity or racism. The equation would [later] evolve to suggesting that if one believed George had defended his life, the reason is because the person had no compassion for loss of life.”

A difficult question indeed. The more one learns about the Trayvon Martin shooting’s aftermath, the less one seems to understand.


Read more: http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/conscience-realist/2013/jun/26/tracy-martin-trayvons-father-questioned-over-suspi/#ixzz2Xiy3834j
Follow us: @wtcommunities on Twitter
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Sun 30 Jun, 2013 12:14 pm
@roger,
Zimmerman apparently had spent three or four weeks in MMA training the way yuppies do their little boxing thing in gyms to try to lose weight, but it's painfully obvious that he'd never been any sort of an athlete. Martin on the other hand was a real athlete, did have (real) MMA training, and was being involved in quasi-organized, quasi-supervised local fights which amounted to poor-folks' versions of Madison-Square Garden on Friday nights.
 

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