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The State of Florida vs George Zimmerman: The Trial

 
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Sat 13 Jul, 2013 08:24 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
I find myself unsurprised as well as pleased with the jury. This is the verdict it was supposed to reach, given its instructions under Florida law. The only depressing thing in this picture is Florida's insanely low burden of proof on a homicide defendant claiming self-defense. I hope the outrage over this trial will lead Florida to adopt a similar standard as other American states.

I disagree. I think the burden should always be entirely on the state to prove guilt.

There should never, under any circumstances, be a case where someone has to prove themselves innocent.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Sat 13 Jul, 2013 08:31 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

NOT GUILTY!

Lesson here is get/stay the hell out of Florida....
firefly
 
  1  
Sat 13 Jul, 2013 08:32 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
The only depressing thing in this picture is Florida's insanely low burden of proof on a homicide defendant claiming self-defense

It's also depressing that a barely 17 year old, simply returning from a trip to the store, wound up dead at George Zimmerman's hands. That was, and is, a tragedy.

Because of that, this verdict is not a cause for celebration.

There was reasonable doubt because no one saw that final altercation, or exactly how it began. Zimmerman was wrong in his actions that night, and his actions led to the death of Trayvon Martin, because, had he remained in his car, and simply waited for the police, that death would not have occurred. But the jury has decided he cannot be held criminally responsible for the death, and everyone must respect that verdict.

This was a conscientious jury that completed its difficult task. It was a fair trial, and the interests of justice were served.

I do not envy the sort of future Zimmerman faces. I don't think his life will be at all pleasant. But at least he has a future, Trayvon Martin does not.

oralloy
 
  1  
Sat 13 Jul, 2013 08:32 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:
But you weren't on the jury and didn't hear and see all the evidence.

Well, if he was following the case closely enough, he could have heard all the evidence I suspect.

I don't see any problem with someone saying they think he is guilty. But if they do, they should be willing to explain themselves and point to the evidence that they think justifies their belief.
JTT
 
  1  
Sat 13 Jul, 2013 08:34 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
but I notice that you are linking to someone who is infamous for maliciously lying


Then you've found a kindred soul, Oralloy.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 13 Jul, 2013 08:44 pm
@firefly,
I disagree; I don't think Zimmerman's life will be that difficult.
JTT
 
  1  
Sat 13 Jul, 2013 08:51 pm
@firefly,
How long until the first riots break out? How many deaths are coming?

What are Las Vegas bookies odds on these and other pertinent questions?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  4  
Sat 13 Jul, 2013 08:52 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
There should never, under any circumstances, be a case where someone has to prove themselves innocent.

If the prosecution has already proven that you killed, and if you're the one making additional claims to avoid the consequences of your killing, then it's your job to show that your claims are actually true. Nobody should get out of punishment they deserve just by making stuff up.
oralloy
 
  1  
Sat 13 Jul, 2013 08:52 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
Then you've found a kindred soul, Oralloy.

No. If there is one thing I will never, ever do, it is support sending innocent people to prison.
Thomas
 
  1  
Sat 13 Jul, 2013 08:53 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
Because of that, this verdict is not a cause for celebration.

I never said I was celebrating.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Sat 13 Jul, 2013 08:55 pm
@mysteryman,
Quote:
But you weren't on the jury and didn't hear and see all the evidence.

Actually, those not on the jury, were able to consider other evidence--like the lying about his assets, and the transfer of money between accounts to conceal them from his own lawyer and the court, so he would get a lower bail, and how Zimmerman and his wife spoke in code, while he was incarcerated awaiting bail, so no one would realize what they were talking about. He clearly showed, in that situation, that he's a brazen and accomplished liar.

And, since his self-defense claim rested mainly on his credibility, those outside of the jury, who had other evidence regarding his character and honesty, like what went on with his bail hearings, might be more inclined to disbelieve his version of the events that led to the shooting.

And the public was able to see all of the evidence which was presented to the jury, with the possible exception of some autopsy photos of Martin. So the public wasn't at a disadvantage compared to the jury. Those who wanted to watch the trial, saw complete gavel to gavel coverage. Nothing was hidden.

So certainly, some may not agree with the jury's verdict in this case, based on the evidence they heard at trial, just as many didn't agree with the verdict in the Casey Anthony trial. But we all must accept the jury's verdict--regardless of whether we agree with it--that's how our system works.

I'm glad this case is finally over.
JTT
 
  0  
Sat 13 Jul, 2013 09:00 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
No. If there is one thing I will never, ever do, it is support sending innocent people to prison.


You obviously got the maliciously lying part sewed up because you do support the murders of millions of innocents at the hands of the US.

That makes your claims about being concerned over innocent people being sent to prison sound awfully lame.
oralloy
 
  0  
Sat 13 Jul, 2013 09:00 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
oralloy wrote:
There should never, under any circumstances, be a case where someone has to prove themselves innocent.

If the prosecution has already proven that you killed, and if you're the one making additional claims to avoid the consequences of your killing, then it's your job to show that your claims are actually true. Nobody should get out of punishment they deserve just by making stuff up.

That is Orwellian.

In a just and civilized society, the prosecution needs to prove all the elements of their case.

Letting the prosecution prove one element of their case, and then requiring the defendant to prove themselves innocent on the rest of the elements of the crime, is just plain wrong.
JTT
 
  0  
Sat 13 Jul, 2013 09:03 pm
@oralloy,
Italy is more backwards and ignorant today, than they were on the day they tried to burn Galileo at the stake.

Italy hasn't needlessly caused the deaths of millions, murdered millions, terrorized hundreds of millions since WWII, Oralloy.

The USA has so you might want to consider who is backward and ignorant.
oralloy
 
  0  
Sat 13 Jul, 2013 09:05 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
you do support the murders of millions of innocents at the hands of the US.

Collateral damage is unfortunate, but it is not murder.

And the numbers are far fewer than "millions".
JTT
 
  0  
Sat 13 Jul, 2013 09:05 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
that's how our system works.


Oxymoron, FF.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Sat 13 Jul, 2013 09:07 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
That is Orwellian.

Then you're right. We disagree.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Sat 13 Jul, 2013 09:08 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
Italy is more backwards and ignorant today, than they were on the day they tried to burn Galileo at the stake.

Italy hasn't needlessly caused the deaths of millions, murdered millions, terrorized hundreds of millions since WWII, Oralloy.

The USA has so you might want to consider who is backward and ignorant.

I wish Obama would order the US Air Force to bomb some of Italy's landmarks.

Like that silly leaning tower thing, or that statue of the naked guy.

I bet it would take less than half an hour for the Air Force to blow all that crap up.
firefly
 
  2  
Sat 13 Jul, 2013 09:08 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
I don't think Zimmerman's life will be that difficult.


I think it will be difficult. A lot of people will regard him as someone who got away with murder--the same way they view Casey Anthony. He's been in hiding, with security, since he was released on bail, and I don't think this verdict will make him any safer.

And he may still face a civil wrongful death suit from the Martin family, to prevent him from profiting, in any way, from their son's death. And Zimmerman was in heavy debt before this shooting, and I don't think his earning prospects are going to improve now. He's not a likeable character.

Why don't you think he will have a difficult time?
oralloy
 
  0  
Sat 13 Jul, 2013 09:13 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
oralloy wrote:
That is Orwellian.

Then you're right. We disagree.

I suspect we'll survive. We've disagreed before I think.

But try imagining yourself in that situation. What if it were you who had been attacked and was forced to defend yourself, and then were deemed guilty until proven innocent?

Anyway, I believe I suggested early on in this case (and I still hold this view) that it would have been nice if the place had had UK-style security camera coverage so that we could actually see what did and did not happen.
0 Replies
 
 

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