The State of Florida vs George Zimmerman: The Trial

@Advocate,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Advocate wrote:
Trayvon just had the lousy luck to pick the wrong guy to beat up.

Yea. It was like those Charles Atlas ads of the 1950s.

Advocate wrote:

Right! With the proliferation of guns, one should not go out of his way to pick a fight.

Yes. WISELY has it been observed that
an ARMED society is a POLITE society.

David

1 Reply

@glitterbag,

glitterbag wrote:

After listening to all the cooing over gun ownership, I think I'm reconsidering my position. Trayvon's parents should have given him a gun to carry, so that when he noticed a strange large man following him, he could have just shot George from a safer distance evoking his stand your ground right. Wouldn't that be a win win situation for gun rights advocates?

That would have earned Trayvon a first degree murder conviction and a well-deserved spot on death row.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Quote:

That would have earned Trayvon a first degree murder conviction and a well-deserved spot on death row.

You mean stand your ground doesn't work if your walking while black?

2 Replies

@farmerman,

Quote:

You mean stand your ground doesn't work if your walking while black?

Sorry but you are being an asshole as any self defense law including the stand your ground version means that you need to be a victim of an attack as Zimmerman was and you needed to use deadly force to keep from being killed or greatly harm.

It does not mean that you can go and shot at anyone who might be a threat to you no matter what the color of your skin happen to be.

Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman trying to pound his brain out on the sidewalk at the time that Zimmerman employed deadly force.

But then you already knew that and was just being an asshole with your above comment.

Shame on you Famerman as unlike glitterbag I had more respect for you then for you posting such complete nonsense.

0 Replies

Incidentally guys, can anybody clue me in about muzzle velocity?
For example we know Zim's gun fired 9mm slugs which is a nice beefy calibre (.357"), but did they come out of the barrel of his little gun at the same velocity as say a slug from a big 9mm Colt?
What I'm trying to say is do slugs of the same calibre have a different amount of propellant charge behind them?
For example could George have bought ANY 9mm shell from the gunshop, or would he have had to buy a 9mm type that was specifically made for small handguns like his?

2 Replies

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Incidentally guys, can anybody clue me in about muzzle velocity?
For example we know Zim's gun fired 9mm slugs which is a nice beefy calibre (.357"),
but did they come out of the barrel of his little gun at the same velocity as say a slug from a big 9mm Colt?
What I'm trying to say is do slugs of the same calibre have a different amount of propellant charge behind them?
For example could George have bought ANY 9mm shell from the gunshop, or would he have had to buy a 9mm type
that was specifically made for small handguns like his?

In many cases, u just buy a box of cartridges of a preferred brand,
caliber, and bullet configuration, accepting whatever the charge is,
from a hardware store. Alternatively, u can get an empty shell and
charge it with the amount of gunpowder of your choice, then plug
the slug in front of it with a custom job of your own personal taste.

Incidentally, the words: "nice beefy" do not come to mind
in reference to 9mm slugs; I deem them to be little above BBs
and will not bet my life on 9mm. Hollowpointed .44 rounds are respectable.

David

0 Replies

Quote:

OmSigDavid said: Incidentally, the words: "nice beefy" do not come to mind in reference to 9mm slugs; I deem them to be little above BBs
and will not bet my life on 9mm. Hollowpointed .44 rounds are respectable.

Thanks mate, calibres are another thing I've wondered about, because the standard calibre of US and Brit army rifles is 5.56mm which is only .22".
Beats me how they think they can win wars with little slugs like that, especially as the enemy usually carries bigger 7.62mm (.30") AK-47 'cannons' (below)!

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub4/DRcongoc.jpg

2 Replies

@Romeo Fabulini,

DAVID wrote:

OmSigDavid said: Incidentally, the words: "nice beefy" do not come to mind
in reference to 9mm slugs; I deem them to be little above BBs
and will not bet my life on 9mm. Hollowpointed .44 rounds are respectable.

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Thanks mate, calibres are another thing I've wondered about,
because the standard calibre of US and Brit army rifles is 5.56mm which is only .22".

Yes; .223 caliber, but upon contact with the target
thay become unstable in flight and thay tumble end-over-end,
creating much greater wound channels. Recoil is next to nothing.
(My comments concern American gunnery, for lack of familiarity
with English guns or ammunition.)

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Beats me how they think they can win wars with little slugs like that,
especially as the enemy usually carries big 7.62mm AK-47 'cannons' (below)!

Yes; the 7.62mm = .308 Winchester is the caliber of our old M-14,
which is an improvement on our M-1 Garand, of WWII fame.
Have u fired those ?

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Advocate wrote:
Trayvon just had the lousy luck to pick the wrong guy to beat up.

Yea. It was like those Charles Atlas ads of the 1950s.

Advocate wrote:
Right! With the proliferation of guns, one should not go out of his way to pick a fight.
Yes. WISELY has it been observed that
an ARMED society is a POLITE society.

David

Right!

We ought to get those folk over in the UK to get more guns into the hands of more people so they can become more polite...like we Americans are.

And the other benefit would be that they would all be a lot safer from violence...like we are!

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/laughing/crying-with-laughter.gif

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Until we DO,
I 'll remain HERE, Frank!

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Until we DO,
I 'll remain here, Frank!
David

I imagine they will all feel a hell of a lot safer remaining there! Wink

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Until we DO,
I 'll remain here, Frank!
David

Frank Apisa wrote:

I imagine they will all feel a hell of a lot safer remaining there!

I dunno about that, Frank.
I 'll seen them (heard them) around Disneyworld a lot.

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Until we DO,
I 'll remain here, Frank!
David

Frank Apisa wrote:
I imagine they will all feel a hell of a lot safer remaining there!

I dunno about that, Frank.
I 'll seen them (heard them) around Disneyworld a lot.

David

I'm sure there are some who also visit Uganda, David, but that does not mean they'd probably feel a lot safer if they had remained in the UK...which is all I said.

Anyway...it would be interesting to hear Americans try to convince people from the UK that the reason they are not as polite and safe from violence as Americans are...is because they do not have enough guns in the hands of enough people.

Although laughter at the first part of that notion would probably drown out the remainder of it.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Wording was a bit screwed up here, David...but I think you understand what I am saying. I am supposing that most Englishmen and women would feel much safer at home than in Uganda...or the US.

No matter that you consider us a more polite and safer nation.

0 Replies

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Incidentally guys, can anybody clue me in about muzzle velocity?
For example we know Zim's gun fired 9mm slugs which is a nice beefy calibre (.357"), but did they come out of the barrel of his little gun at the same velocity as say a slug from a big 9mm Colt?
What I'm trying to say is do slugs of the same calibre have a different amount of propellant charge behind them?
For example could George have bought ANY 9mm shell from the gunshop, or would he have had to buy a 9mm type that was specifically made for small handguns like his?

If a round has additional pressure (usually designated with "+P" or "+P+" on the round), you will not want to fire it from a gun that is not designed for such greater pressure.

Typically any modern gun will be able to handle such rounds, but it would be a Very Good Thing to make sure before using such rounds.

0 Replies

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Thanks mate, calibres are another thing I've wondered about, because the standard calibre of US and Brit army rifles is 5.56mm which is only .22".
Beats me how they think they can win wars with little slugs like that, especially as the enemy usually carries bigger 7.62mm (.30") AK-47 'cannons' (below)!

The problem is, if you want to fire bursts of bullets instead of strict "semi-auto-only" fire, from a shoulder-fired rifle, you need to do something about recoil.

The old .30 rounds for the AK-47 have a somewhat low velocity for a rifle (an attempt to try to reduce that recoil). And even with that reduced velocity, the Soviets still gave up on the round and also switched over to a .22 class round back in 1974.

If you really want to go back to hard-hitting rounds, you will need to also give up burst-fire and start using rifles that are semi-auto-only.

0 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Yes; .223 caliber, but upon contact with the target
thay become unstable in flight and thay tumble end-over-end,
creating much greater wound channels. Recoil is next to nothing.
(My comments concern American gunnery, for lack of familiarity
with English guns or ammunition.)

All modern rifle bullets that do not expand in the manner of a hollowpoint, tumble in that manner. The laws of physics demand that such bullets be traveling backwards when passing through flesh, and the bullets comply by flipping over upon entering flesh. This leads to a brief moment of the bullet going sideways.

The key with NATO SS-109 Green Tip bullets is that they are too weak to maintain their structural integrity when passing sideways through flesh if they are traveling at a high enough velocity. Such bullets will violently shatter upon turning sideways, producing a wound similar in nature to that produced by hunting ammo.

Achieving such an effect requires the use of a round of a certain energy (for example rounds made to the American M-855 standard), and firing them through a long-enough barrel.

The effect happens much less these days because so many soldiers use M-4 carbines that have shorter barrels that do not achieve the required velocity.

0 Replies

Quote:

Frank Apisa said:@RF- People like you over there ought to lobby to get the NRA to open a branch over in Great Britain...so you all can start pack more heat.
Pretty soon, you all will be as safe as we Americans.
And visitors to your country will be as safe as are visitors to America.
C'mon. Get with it, Romeo.
Make Great Britain a safer place by getting more guns into the hands of more people like we do here.

Yes, but the Brits are too pre-occupied with drinking tea than to demand guns.
Ask any Brit if he wants a gun and he'll reply shocked "Certainly not! Why on earth would I want a gun, this is not the wild west!"
But if anybody in Britain REALLY wanted a gun, he could get one legitimately dead easy by joing an official gun club using their guns on their range for a probationary period of about 3 months, then fill in a Firearms Licence Request form from the police.
The cops will then ask the club whether he behaved alright, and if he did they'll then run background checks on him, and if he's got no police record he'll be granted a Firearms Licence to buy one gun.
But if he's got so much as a parking ticket against his name he can kiss goodbye to dreams of getting a Licence.
(I once served a 3-month jail sentence on a vigilante rap, so I've got zilch chance!)

However, if somebody's a farmer he can get a shotgun licence much easier for "vermin control" (crows, foxes and bunnies etc) even with bad paper against his name.

Plus of course there are other ways to get a gun or shotgun in Britain by bypassing the troublesome licensing procedure, for example by palling up with a gun club member or farmer to buy you a piece on his licence, but of course I'd never do that myself..

3 Replies

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
Frank Apisa said:@RF- People like you over there ought to lobby to get the NRA to open a branch over in Great Britain...so you all can start pack more heat.
Pretty soon, you all will be as safe as we Americans.
And visitors to your country will be as safe as are visitors to America.
C'mon. Get with it, Romeo.
Make Great Britain a safer place by getting more guns into the hands of more people like we do here.

Yes, but the Brits are too pre-occupied with drinking tea than to demand guns.
Ask any Brit if he wants a gun and he'll reply shocked "Certainly not! Why on earth would I want a gun, this is not the wild west!"
But if anybody in Britain REALLY wanted a gun, he could get one legitimately dead easy by joing an official gun club using their guns on their range for a probationary period of about 3 months, then fill in a Firearms Licence Request form from the police.
The cops will then ask the club whether he behaved alright, and if he did they'll then run background checks on him, and if he's got no police record he'll be granted a Firearms Licence to buy one gun.
But if he's got so much as a parking ticket against his name he can kiss goodbye to dreams of getting a Licence.
(I once served a 3-month jail sentence on a vigilante rap, so I've got zilch chance!)

However, if somebody's a farmer he can get a shotgun licence much easier for "vermin control" (crows, foxes and bunnies etc) even with bad paper against his name.

Plus of course there are other ways to get a gun or shotgun in Britain by bypassing the troublesome licensing procedure, for example by palling up with a gun club member or farmer to buy you a piece on his licence, but of course I'd never do that myself..

And then you agree that if only they would put more guns in the hands of more people...they would become more polite like we Americans are...and would be more safe...like we Americans are...right?

0 Replies

Quote:

Frank Apisa asked: And then you agree that if only they would put more guns in the hands of more people...they would become more polite like we Americans are...and would be more safe...like we Americans are...right?

Absolutely.. Smile

Trouble is, the Brits are soft and unwisely think they're already polite enough.
For example in this alien landing in Dorsetshire the Brit woman asks if it'd like a cup of tea at 2:12-

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/alien-prank_zpsf4b83785.jpg~original

Now compare it to the much more sensible American way of greeting aliens with a hail of slugs-
The Day the Earth Stood Still

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/klaatushot_zps44a0c011.jpg~original

1 Reply

The State of Florida vs George Zimmerman: The Trial

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