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The State of Florida vs George Zimmerman: The Trial

 
 
BillW
 
  2  
Tue 2 Jul, 2013 09:13 pm
@BillW,
I just saw a piece of redirect of the detective - he was asked if Martin's hands were under his body and not spread out. He answers yes. The DA's back is turned to the detective and detective is looking at Zimmerman. The detective appears to be mouthing "I'm sorry" to Z after making that court statement.

Absolutely, WOW!
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jul, 2013 09:24 pm
Persecution now begging judge for inquiry of defense atty's young daughter over ice-cream photo:

http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/zimmerman-trial-ice-cream-post-could-lead-to-inquiry
Thomas
 
  2  
Tue 2 Jul, 2013 09:32 pm
@BillW,
BillW wrote:
You are so correct Thomas, that's the reason the US jails are so empty, no one can prove anything against criminals in this country due to "the standard of proof for his defense is so low". Yeap, you carry a lot of credibility on that one........

If sarcasm against my person is the best counter-argument you could come up with, I apparently do.
BillW
 
  1  
Tue 2 Jul, 2013 09:37 pm
@Thomas,
how 'bout, going for the laugh! Sorry couldn't help a pure setup.

And, if you are wondering, no, I would not have gone for it if it headed in the other direction Smile
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Wed 3 Jul, 2013 12:09 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
Persecution now begging judge for inquiry of defense atty's young daughter over ice-cream photo:

http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/zimmerman-trial-ice-cream-post-could-lead-to-inquiry
Does the prosecutor believe that
adverse counsel 's daughter has forfeited her First Amendment rights??
There shud be a defense motion for sanctions
for frivolous motion practice.





David
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Wed 3 Jul, 2013 06:52 am
@OmSigDAVID,
So Zimmerman's head was being "beaten on the cement" but he only had a couple of small abrasions? Was this cement really soft? Or was Zimmerman's head really hard?

I have had worse than that and never thought I was going to die.

By the way, Zimmerman's story is that his head was NOT being "beaten on the cement" when he pulled the trigger.
DrewDad
 
  2  
Wed 3 Jul, 2013 07:19 am
@BillW,
BillW wrote:
But I still don't understand what 7-5 means.

It's a way of showing odds. In this case, slightly more than half of the time the outcome with go one way and not the other.

Out of twelve trials, it will occur one way seven times, and the other way five times.
revelette
 
  1  
Wed 3 Jul, 2013 07:31 am
This evidence ruling they are arguing over now is interesting. The judge is going to allow Zimmerman's courses he took in self defense and stand your ground laws. I think it is important because it shows not only his desire to be a wannabe cop but also, his pat account of what happened which allowed him to claim self defense. He was familiar with those defenses when he was answering questions from the very beginning.

Quote:
Prosecutor Richard Mantei says the evidence also shows Zimmerman learned about testifying and talking to police. Mantei says you don't get to consider Zimmerman's frustrations in a vacuum. He is showing the judge a PowerPoint presentation that outlines his argument. Mantei says Zimmerman's "extracurricular life mirrors" his desires to be a cop. Mantei says Zimmerman used police jargon like "I unholstered my firearm." He also says Zimmerman told police he "knew the legal side" of the situation he was in.


source
firefly
 
  2  
Wed 3 Jul, 2013 09:04 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Inconsistency doesn't necessarily mean deception.


But when you get inconsistencies, and contradictions, it does raise suspicions about his truthfulness. Why should there be any inconsistencies and contradictions in Zimmerman's accounts? His only motivation to be untruthful, or to stretch the truth, would be some awareness of guilt on his part.

The police did have suspicions about Zimmerman from the start, and they did try to shake his story. The chief investigator did feel Zimmerman exaggerated the extent of his injuries, which he thought looked only "minor"--so they did wonder about Zimmerman's need to use deadly force, particularly after he followed this kid, toward whom he had some animosity, based on his profiling of him.

And then it turns out that the "suspicious character" was a teenage guest at that housing complex, who was simply coming back from the store, when Zimmerman set this whole tragedy in motion. That also raises questions about how much Zimmerman distorted everything about Martin in his accounts (and possibly even in his own mind), in order to make the shooting fit in with his perception of a criminal type, and in order to make his accounts more convincing to the police.

But the police couldn't shake his story, and there just wasn't enough evidence to confirm their suspicions--no one witnessed what went on before the fight broke out, Martin was dead, and Zimmerman's account was all they had. And that's why they wound up not charging him--there were lots of unanswered and troubling questions about this shooting, but no way to get them answered because the evidence just wasn't available.

And what I think we're seeing in this trial are the reasons they couldn't charge him right away--the evidence that this wasn't self defense is not firm or clear-cut enough to be confident of a successful prosecution. That's why the defense can score off the prosecution witnesses. The state is making a case for second degree murder or manslaughter, but that case really hinges on Zimmerman's mind-set toward Martin and the credibility of his accounts, and those are difficult evidentiary factors to put forth to a jury, particularly without having the defendant on the stand.

They do have some evidence about mind-set from Zimmerman's 911 calls and the fact he followed Martin, and they have Jeantel's testimony that Martin was trying to avoid him, and not looking for a fight, and said, "Get off me," when Zimmerman confronted him, suggesting it was Zimmerman who provoked or instigated the fight, and they have evidence that Zimmerman's injuries were minor and insignificant when he fired the shot. But, while there are contradictions and inconsistencies in Zimmerman's accounts, I think they don't have enough additional evidence to prove he was lying in those accounts to completely void his claim of self defense. And, given Florida law, they would have to completely void that claim.

I think it's better that this case did wind up in court, because of the troubling unanswered questions about this death, but I don't think we will get satisfactory answers to those questions because there doesn't seem to be a way to ferret them out. This was a totally avoidable and needless death, no matter how much Zimmerman chooses to see it as, "God's plan", and, whether due to his over-zealous desire to not see this punk get away, or his impaired judgment in so rapidly profiling Martin, or to his impulsively in not being able to wait for the police, or to his just plain reckless indifference for Martin's welfare, Zimmerman is responsible for creating the conditions that led to this needless death. Being able to hold him legally responsible for that death is a different matter. The state is trying hard, very hard, but they are so far hampered by a lack of enough evidence to completely void his self defense claim--and Florida law requires them to do that.

Watching this trial I can now understand why Zimmerman wasn't charged sooner.

If the jury knew about Zimmerman's lying to his lawyer, and the court, about his assets, so he could get a lower bail, and the elaborate scheme he and his wife devised to shift his assets between accounts to conceal them, and how they discussed this plan using code while Zimmerman was incarcerated and awaiting bail, I wonder how they would view this man's character and his credibility. He's a very accomplished and brazen liar, but the jury won't know about that...

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 3 Jul, 2013 09:06 am
@revelette,
Well, if that's true, it seems Zimmerman is going to use the stand your ground laws of the state. All the prosecution has to do is to prove that Zimmerman lied. They have plenty of opportunities to prove it - by his own words.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Wed 3 Jul, 2013 09:09 am
@firefly,
Quote:
But when you get inconsistencies, and contradictions, it does raise suspicions about his truthfulness.


It doesn't just raise suspicions about only Zimmerman's truthfulness, Firefly.

Why do you zero in on his and give your inconsistencies and contradictions a free pass?

Why do you zero in on his and give your leaders' inconsistencies and contradictions a free pass?

Why do you zero in on his and give your fellow A2Kers' inconsistencies and contradictions a free pass?

This certainly does raise suspicions about a good number of folks' truthfulness.



0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Wed 3 Jul, 2013 11:05 am
@parados,
parados wrote:
So Zimmerman's head was being "beaten on the cement"
but he only had a couple of small abrasions?
No. He bled from the back of his head.
The colored (red) pictures thereof have been published.
That justifies his defense.

Do u argue that the statute requires a victim like Zimmy
to put up with some degree of injury to his head,
even if it is not lethal, to protect the bad guy ??

I do not believe that the law requires a victim like Zimmy
to accurately PREDICT the medical consequences
of the next impact (et seq.) against his head,
while he is considering his defensive strategy
as his head is being beaten on the street.
Maybe u have a different interpretation
of statutory or judicial authority on that point??




parados wrote:
Was this cement really soft? Or was Zimmerman's head really hard?

I have had worse than that and never thought I was going to die.
OK, if u want, we can use your head to experiment
qua the results of being beaten against the street.
U r volunteering, yes ???




parados wrote:
By the way, Zimmerman's story is that his head was NOT
being "beaten on the cement" when he pulled the trigger.
Thank u for the correction.
According to u,
what does Zimmy allege in this regard??





David
firefly
 
  1  
Wed 3 Jul, 2013 11:18 am
@revelette,
Quote:
He was familiar with those defenses when he was answering questions from the very beginning.

Yes he was. And he was one of the better students in the class.

They also used Zimmerman's former criminal justice teacher to catch Zimmerman in a definite lie. He told Sean Hannity he had never heard of Stand Your Ground Before--but he took course work that covered it as a defense. This man is a liar.

OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Wed 3 Jul, 2013 11:22 am
@revelette,
revelette wrote:
This evidence ruling they are arguing over now is interesting.
The judge is going to allow Zimmerman's courses he took in self defense
and stand your ground laws. I think it is important because it shows not only his desire to be a wannabe cop
If he wishes to join the police,
then he loses his rights of self defense
and he must let people beat his head on the cement ????
Forgive my skepticism.




revelette wrote:

Quote:
Prosecutor Richard Mantei says the evidence also shows Zimmerman learned about testifying and talking to police. Mantei says you don't get to consider Zimmerman's frustrations in a vacuum. He is showing the judge a PowerPoint presentation that outlines his argument. Mantei says Zimmerman's "extracurricular life mirrors" his desires to be a cop. Mantei says Zimmerman used police jargon like "I unholstered my firearm."
I am not a police officer.
When I take my gun out of its holster,
then am I supposed to call it something else????

What are non-police civilians supposed to call it
when we take our guns out of their holsters ??
Will u explain your thinking on this ??

cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Wed 3 Jul, 2013 11:26 am
@OmSigDAVID,
You have no common sense or skepticism; you repeat false information about his injuries, and you think everybody will believe you. You're a ******* dork on these threads with nothing substantial to offer.

Several witnesses at the trial already pooped your claims. Give it up!
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Wed 3 Jul, 2013 11:45 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
If he wishes to join the police,
then he loses his rights of self defense

If his wannabe cop mind-set causes him not to wait for the real cops to show up, in a situation that did not require an urgent response, and he instead followed, confronted, and provoked, a fight with a person who was not engaged in any criminal activity, because of his wannabe cop mind-set, his actions might not constitute self defense--it's his becoming the pursuer and aggressor that would cause him to lose the claim to self defense. And that is the case the prosecution has been building.

They've had 3 witnesses testify that Zimmerman's head injuries were minor--and not consistent with having his head "beaten" or "pounded" on cement.

Zimmerman also told his best friend that he shot Martin because Martin was reaching for his gun--not because he feared imminent great harm from having his head pounded on concrete. He's given more than one version of why he shot Martin. He does seem to be trying to cover all the bases rather than telling the truth.

Try watching, or following, the actual trial.

BillW
 
  1  
Wed 3 Jul, 2013 11:48 am
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

BillW wrote:
But I still don't understand what 7-5 means.

It's a way of showing odds. In this case, slightly more than half of the time the outcome with go one way and not the other.

Out of twelve trials, it will occur one way seven times, and the other way five times.


So 58% yes, 42% no..... Thanks! In odds, that is pretty close, don't put a lot of money on it.
roger
 
  1  
Wed 3 Jul, 2013 11:52 am
@BillW,
If the bet were a dollar each bet, I would play with you all day long. If it were my life, well, not in a million years.
BillW
 
  2  
Wed 3 Jul, 2013 11:54 am
@firefly,
Because he is aware on 3 or 4 fronts that the police are within 2-4 minutes and he still shot Trayvon even thought this was never any immediatcy, well, this can be construed as the actions of a depraved mind.......

Murder 2 is back on the table folks.!
BillW
 
  1  
Wed 3 Jul, 2013 11:55 am
@roger,
Actually, I'm not a betting person, so I won't bet period if I'm being honest....
 

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