27
   

The State of Florida vs George Zimmerman: The Trial

 
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Sat 7 Sep, 2013 02:48 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
n this case yes, he had the better weapons, Zimmerman should have never ended up on the ground with Martin on top of him.


Nonsense as if he have had his weapon out and fired it as Trayvon approach then there would be no question he would be guilty of a crime.

You never never wave a gun around as a threat. It is mean as a very last resort not a first resort.

Very few people that know me are aware even that I am normally armed let alone seen the firearms.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 7 Sep, 2013 02:56 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
And you would recognize college material...how?

Who would help you?


Nice living for 33 years as a engineer and a BSEE in 1972 and a SAT score in the top ten percents for that matter.


So, Bill, you had SAT scores in the top ten percents (sic)!

Who do you think you are fooling, Bill? If your ability with the language is any indicator (and it should be) you are a sub-50 percentile in everything.

Quote:
Oh and never had a problem with being kicked out of high school and so on.


If that is as honest as the "top ten percents (sic again)"...you must have spent lots of days on suspension.

Quote:
Poor baby keep trying.


Don't worry. I'm here for ya, Bill. I'm not going anywhere. I love to see you respond and prove my point.
BillRM
 
  1  
Sat 7 Sep, 2013 03:01 pm
@hawkeye10,
You do not shoot to wound in self defense shootings.


hawkeye10
 
  2  
Sat 7 Sep, 2013 03:05 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

You do not shoot to wound in self defense shootings.



the police are by law required to use the min force required, citizens should be as well.
BillRM
 
  1  
Sat 7 Sep, 2013 03:06 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:


http://www.secondcalldefense.org/self-defense-news/why-brandishing-shooting-wound-and-warning-shots-are-bad-ideas

Perhaps the best explanation for this comes from Ken Hanson's book The Ohio Guide to Firearm Laws, Fourth Edition, pages 76-77. While written for Ohio gun owners, you should consider taking Ken's advice to heart no matter where you live.

Prosecutors have another term for warning shots: attempted felonious assault, improper discharge of a firearm etc. Shooting someone in the leg rather than center mass is similarly misguided and will not evade serious felony charges. Similarly, pulling out a gun just to "defuse the situation" is a legal non-starter. Do not be tempted to do this. If the gun comes out of the holster, the gun owner had better be justified in immediately employing it fully. There is no such thing as a warning shot or shooting to wound. This will be construed as a miss, bad marksmanship and perhaps even attempted murder.

This author understands the theory that the presence of a firearm might eliminate a confrontation. However, the opposite is equally true. For illustration purposes, assume the following: Someone was rudely and dangerously cutoff on a street, the horn blast that logically followed developed into the "cutter" getting out of the car to go yell at the "cuttee." The "cutter" does not display anything other than bare hands. Unfortunately, "cuttee" then displayed his handgun in the honest belief that it would avert/end the confrontation. Bad move.

First, no threat of imminent serious physical harm or death had been made, thus the person who took out the handgun did not have any legal justification for using lethal force. Second, the "cuttee" has escalated the situation: Within his own car, without any threat of serious physical harm or death, he removed a handgun from a holster. This action clearly, in this circumstance, could be construed as a threat. Would the "cutter" now be justified in drawing a handgun of their own and shooting the "cuttee," assuming it wouldn't violate a duty to retreat? This scenario will always present more questions than answers, and the gun owner is going to be playing against long odds if he brandishes a firearm in a non-lethal situation.

Removing a handgun from a holster, or even possibly just uncovering and indicating the presence of a handgun, can be considered a hostile act and will be considered a criminal act. As the old saying goes, an armed society is a polite society, and people do not need to be waving guns around to accomplish this. IF YOU ARE GOING TO TAKE YOUR HANDGUN OUT OF A HOLSTER, YOU HAD BETTER BE LEGALLY JUSTIFIED IN USING IT IMMEDIATELY.

Readers, students and the general public never like this answer, but I assure you it is an accurate answer under Ohio law and has withstood the test of time and appellate cases. Any deliberate action on your part that introduces lethal force into the encounter in a manner that makes the other person aware of the lethal force, IS THE USE OF LETHAL FORCE. If you make reference to lethal force, show lethal force, hold lethal force in your hand etc., those actions are simply an alternative use of lethal force, short of pulling the trigger. If you are in a non-lethal encounter, and have used lethal force, even in this round-about, alternate way, you have escalated the encounter and will have difficulties proving your self-defense case.

In short, don't draw your firearm until you honestly believe you are in immediate danger of death or great bodily harm. And if that is truly your belief, you don't have the leisure of brandishing, shooting to wound, or firing a warning shot.

At that crucial moment, you should do what you've been trained to do: stop the attack by shooting your attacker center mass until the danger is gone.

Then, if you end up in a courtroom, you can honestly and with conviction look the jury in the eyes and say, "I feared for my life. I had no choice."
BillRM
 
  1  
Sat 7 Sep, 2013 03:11 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
the police are by law required to use the min force required, citizens should be as well.


Sorry when the police feel that their lives might be in danger they will employed legal force at once.

Man just got killed in Miami for not dropping what turn out to be a BB gun and another man got shoot down for going toward officers a few years ago with a pair of scissors in his hands.

Now if you do not think that your life is in danger you do not have a right to even pull out a firearm.

Footnote in Florida there was a case of an unarmed man attacking a police officer and knocking him to the ground and once he decided that his life was in serous risk he killed that unarmed attacker also just as Zimmerman did.

However he follow training far better and did a double tap instead of Zimmerman single tap.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 7 Sep, 2013 03:15 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:


http://www.secondcalldefense.org/self-defense-news/why-brandishing-shooting-wound-and-warning-shots-are-bad-ideas

Perhaps the best explanation for this comes from Ken Hanson's book The Ohio Guide to Firearm Laws, Fourth Edition, pages 76-77. While written for Ohio gun owners, you should consider taking Ken's advice to heart no matter where you live.

Prosecutors have another term for warning shots: attempted felonious assault, improper discharge of a firearm etc. Shooting someone in the leg rather than center mass is similarly misguided and will not evade serious felony charges. Similarly, pulling out a gun just to "defuse the situation" is a legal non-starter. Do not be tempted to do this. If the gun comes out of the holster, the gun owner had better be justified in immediately employing it fully. There is no such thing as a warning shot or shooting to wound. This will be construed as a miss, bad marksmanship and perhaps even attempted murder.

This author understands the theory that the presence of a firearm might eliminate a confrontation. However, the opposite is equally true. For illustration purposes, assume the following: Someone was rudely and dangerously cutoff on a street, the horn blast that logically followed developed into the "cutter" getting out of the car to go yell at the "cuttee." The "cutter" does not display anything other than bare hands. Unfortunately, "cuttee" then displayed his handgun in the honest belief that it would avert/end the confrontation. Bad move.

First, no threat of imminent serious physical harm or death had been made, thus the person who took out the handgun did not have any legal justification for using lethal force. Second, the "cuttee" has escalated the situation: Within his own car, without any threat of serious physical harm or death, he removed a handgun from a holster. This action clearly, in this circumstance, could be construed as a threat. Would the "cutter" now be justified in drawing a handgun of their own and shooting the "cuttee," assuming it wouldn't violate a duty to retreat? This scenario will always present more questions than answers, and the gun owner is going to be playing against long odds if he brandishes a firearm in a non-lethal situation.

Removing a handgun from a holster, or even possibly just uncovering and indicating the presence of a handgun, can be considered a hostile act and will be considered a criminal act. As the old saying goes, an armed society is a polite society, and people do not need to be waving guns around to accomplish this. IF YOU ARE GOING TO TAKE YOUR HANDGUN OUT OF A HOLSTER, YOU HAD BETTER BE LEGALLY JUSTIFIED IN USING IT IMMEDIATELY.

Readers, students and the general public never like this answer, but I assure you it is an accurate answer under Ohio law and has withstood the test of time and appellate cases. Any deliberate action on your part that introduces lethal force into the encounter in a manner that makes the other person aware of the lethal force, IS THE USE OF LETHAL FORCE. If you make reference to lethal force, show lethal force, hold lethal force in your hand etc., those actions are simply an alternative use of lethal force, short of pulling the trigger. If you are in a non-lethal encounter, and have used lethal force, even in this round-about, alternate way, you have escalated the encounter and will have difficulties proving your self-defense case.

In short, don't draw your firearm until you honestly believe you are in immediate danger of death or great bodily harm. And if that is truly your belief, you don't have the leisure of brandishing, shooting to wound, or firing a warning shot.

At that crucial moment, you should do what you've been trained to do: stop the attack by shooting your attacker center mass until the danger is gone.

Then, if you end up in a courtroom, you can honestly and with conviction look the jury in the eyes and say, "I feared for my life. I had no choice."



I CAN ALMOST HEAR YOU WISHING UPON WISH THAT THE DAY WILL SOON COME WHERE YOU WILL "HAVE" TO DRAW YOUR WEAPON...AND WILL SHOOT SOMEONE WITH THE INTENT TO KILL THEM.

Must be a very sad life you are living, Bill.
hawkeye10
 
  3  
Sat 7 Sep, 2013 03:23 pm
@BillRM,
are you seriously arguing that unnecessary death is fine because the law allows it? I dont have the right to demand that zimmerman not kill martin because by our laws we instructed him that he could, but martin coming away dead is certainly not "fine" with me, ho-hum, oh well........
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Sat 7 Sep, 2013 03:25 pm
Those on this thread who fail to value life are scum, and not worth the time to have any discussions with. Their life is already in the pits, and they think everybody else's life has no value.
BillRM
 
  1  
Sat 7 Sep, 2013 03:26 pm
@Frank Apisa,
LOL there are far far more areas of human achievements then putting sentences together and those areas allowed you to try to insult me over the internet instead of chipping rocks to record your opinions........

An as far as the society valuing of your abilities compared to mine I was paid around four times more then the companies secretaries that reviews the engineers grammar and almost double what the tech writers was paid to produce the customers and service manuals.

Sorry dear but anything you have beyond the cave is the result of people like me designing it.
BillRM
 
  1  
Sat 7 Sep, 2013 03:29 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I CAN ALMOST HEAR YOU WISHING UPON WISH THAT THE DAY WILL SOON COME WHERE YOU WILL "HAVE" TO DRAW YOUR WEAPON...AND WILL SHOOT SOMEONE WITH THE INTENT TO KILL THEM.


LOL I do not even go out hunting and also have fire extinguishers and yet have no desire to have my home catch on fire so I can used them.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Sat 7 Sep, 2013 03:30 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Quote:
Well, this is what happens when one is poor and with limited funds. If Trayvon's parents had sufficient funds they might have been able to get a first-class legal defense. The private lawyer for Trayvon's parents (Crump) was a disappointment as well, but that made no difference in the outcome

The State of Florida does not have limited funds--and that's who represented Trayvon Martin in this action. The parents did not have to fund any legal defense--their son was not the defendant.

Benjamin Crump, who has acted on the Martin's behalf, is a top-notch civil attorney, and he was instrumental in helping them to get Zimmerman arrested and charged. If they decide to bring a wrongful death civil suit against Zimmerman, Crump would be an excellent choice to represent them in that--he already has won a $7 million+ judgment to his credit. In such a case, the attorney works on a consignment basis, so the Martin's ability to pay would not be a factor.

I think the prosecution was hampered because this case was poorly handled from the start, in evidence collection and preservation of evidence. No toxicology tests were even done on Zimmerman. And the police the night of the shooting did not know Trayvon Martin belonged in that community, that he was a guest there, and he had no ID on him. So they may have assumed he was some sort of criminal trespasser and prematurely bought Zimmerman's version of events. Had they known that this was just a kid returning to a residence there, after a trip to the store, everything about this case might have been handled differently from the start, and they might have scrutinized Zimmerman very differently, and might well have arrested him that night--they did classify this homicide as "unnecessary".

And, generally, the prosecution has the full cooperation of the police when a case goes to trial, and that was clearly missing in this case because of what went on beforehand--the chief investigator on this case, who had wanted Zimmerman arrested after the shooting, and who was concerned about the inconsistencies in Zimmerman's account of events, wound up being demoted before he testified at trial, and the chief of police was forced to resign. So, the police, particularly that demoted chief investigator, were almost like hostile witnesses for the prosecution, and they downplayed the concerns they had had about Zimmerman's credibility. It was almost like they were trying to sabotage the prosecution's case as some sort of payback.

And there were no witnesses who really saw what happened between Zimmerman and Martin. And although the state's voice analysis experts all felt it was Martin's voice that could be heard screaming for help, this evidence was ruled as inadmissible because of concerns about the technology used.

And finally, Rachel Jeantel was a very key witness for the prosecution and she was not well prepared by them. Her demeanor may have affected her credibility with the jury, and the prosecution, or even her own lawyer, should have worked with her to help her feel more comfortable on the witness stand so that she wouldn't feel so vulnerable. She clearly was reluctant to be there, and I can't say I'd blame her, particularly given the ridicule she was subjected to. I personally found her refreshingly natural and spontaneous, and very credible, but I also found it painful watching the defense attorney trying to humiliate her.

Jeantel was clearly from a lower class background than the Martin family, and because her demeanor was more "ghetto" the jury may have made the assumption that Martin was also considerably more ghetto than he actually was, and that he was the type to "have an attitude", just like Jeantel--when neither was probably the case. Jeantel wasn't even that close a friend of Martin's. They had known each other as young children, but apparently had reconnected only two weeks before the shooting. So Jeantel certainly wasn't the ideal witness the prosecution might have wanted, but she was the one on the phone with Martin while Zimmerman was following him, and her testimony indicated that Martin had been trying to avoid Zimmerman and that it was Zimmerman who had provoked the fight.

But Jeantel's testimony seems not to have had the impact with the jury it really should have had, probably because this mostly white jury could not culturally connect with her, or even understand her language or behavior--and one juror who spoke out voiced that very clearly. And that would be because of a racial/cultural divide, and one that would probably not have happened if there had been even one black person on that jury, or someone who simply had more experience interacting with people from backgrounds just like Jeantel's. So I do think that was one way that racial factors did affect this trial and the verdict--it allowed a key witness for the prosecution to be too easily dismissed or disregarded because the jury just may have been unable to relate to her because of matters like race and class.

So, without enough good, well preserved evidence, and without eye-witnesses who could testify to what happened, and how it began, and without the full cooperation of the police, and with a flawed key witness, like Jeantel, who might not have been fully convincing for a jury in reporting what Martin was saying and doing and feeling just prior to the shooting, and without a clear way to force Zimmerman to take the stand, the prosecution didn't have much to work with. And, on top of that, they were forced to stretch for a second degree murder conviction in a case they might have won had they just focused on manslaughter.

I think the prosecution did a more than decent effort, given what they had to work with. Could they have done better? Yes. They gave the defense too much leeway to use smoke and mirror tactics without then attacking those forcefully enough. But I'm not sure anything might have changed the outcome--under Florida law the jury had to give Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt regarding self defense--unless the prosecution could have shown that Zimmerman's reckless actions in bringing the confrontation about satisfied the elements for manslaughter. Had they more carefully summed that up for the jurors they might have gotten a manslaughter conviction, since half the jury was convinced of that when deliberations first started.

But I really think the prosecution did the best they could, all things considered.

I think a civil trial, if one takes place, will be quite different because Zimmerman will have to testify. That would change things considerably. He can be discredited on cross-examination--his account is inconsistent, contradictory, and in many ways, at odds with the physical evidence. That would come across much more clearly with him on the witness stand.




BillRM
 
  1  
Sat 7 Sep, 2013 03:37 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
right to demand that zimmerman not kill martin because by our laws we instructed him that he could,


Zimmerman have no right to pull out a deadly instrument let alone employed it if he was not under the reasonable opinion that his life was on the line then and there.

If he felt, he could play around with trying to wound Trayvon or even frighting Trayvon then the situation had not reached the point that the firearm should be shown let alone used.

Look at the video and the self defense law expert for more details of the logic of why it was set up that way.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Sat 7 Sep, 2013 03:39 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Those on this thread who fail to value life are scum


I agree with you that Trayvon was both a hoodlum and scum for trying to killed or serous harm Zimmerman due to Zimmerman annoying him.

Trayvon surely have no respect for Zimmerman life,
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Sat 7 Sep, 2013 03:51 pm
@BillRM,
repeat after me Bill, " it is a shame that these two guys got into it resulting in Travon ending up dead.

this should be easy.
BillRM
 
  1  
Sat 7 Sep, 2013 03:55 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
it is a shame that these two guys got into it resulting in Travon ending up dead.


It is a shame that Trayvon did not just walked home instead of turning and attacking Zimmerman.
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Sat 7 Sep, 2013 04:38 pm
@firefly,
Your entire post is simply unputdownable, reveting in fact. Your explanation of the Trayvon case is understandably clear to all with an open mind. The Rachel Jeantel witness I found curiously interesting.

Quote:

And finally, Rachel Jeantel was a very key witness for the prosecution and she was not well prepared by them. Her demeanor may have affected her credibility with the jury, and the prosecution, or even her own lawyer, should have worked with her to help her feel more comfortable on the witness stand so that she wouldn't feel so vulnerable. She clearly was reluctant to be there, and I can't say I'd blame her, particularly given the ridicule she was subjected to. I personally found her refreshingly natural and spontaneous, and very credible, but I also found it painful watching the defense attorney trying to humiliate her.


Yes, I found Rachel Jeantel not only credible but fascinating to observe. It's true she was inarticulate but that made her come across as more believable....that George Zimmerman was the one doing the pursuing of Trayvon. But once again we had the Prosecution sinking to the level of triviality, trying to exploit the fact she was from a poor background, which on some receptive minds might play well. After the prosecutor had worked to discredit Jeantel, my heart sank, because she was the one witness to the actual happening even though by cell.
BillRM
 
  0  
Sat 7 Sep, 2013 05:19 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Quote:
Your entire post is simply unputdownable, reveting in fact. Your explanation of the Trayvon case is understandably clear to all with an open mind.


LOL,,,,,,,,,,
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  2  
Sat 7 Sep, 2013 05:23 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Quote:
Yes, I found Rachel Jeantel not only credible but fascinating to observe. It's true she was inarticulate but that made her come across as more believable....that George Zimmerman was the one doing the pursuing of Trayvon.


As one law professor stated a text book example of lawful self defense.


Quote:


http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/george-zimmerman-lie-detector-421395

A day after killing Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman passed a police lie detector test when asked if he confronted the teenager and whether he feared for his life “when you shot the guy,” according to documents released today by Florida prosecutors.

According to a “confidential report” prepared by the Sanford Police Department, Zimmerman, 28, willingly submitted to a computer voice stress analyzer (CVSA) “truth verification” on February 27. Investigators concluded that he “has told substantially the complete truth in regards to this examination.”

Zimmerman, the report noted, “was classified as No Deception Indicated (NDI).”

Along with questions about whether his first name was George and if it was Monday, Zimmerman was asked, “Did you confront the guy you shot?’ He answered, “No.” He was also asked, “Were you in fear for your life, when you shot the guy.” Zimmerman replied, “Yes.”

Before the CVSA test, Zimmerman--who was apparently not accompanied by legal counsel--signed a Sanford Police Department release stating that he was undergoing the examination “voluntarily, without duress, coercion, threat or promise.”

The lie detector test was requested by Chris Serino, a homicide investigator with the Sanford Police Department.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  4  
Sat 7 Sep, 2013 05:30 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Jeantel is not only a proven liar and an apparent retard, but she had nothing relavant to say because she does not claim any knowledge about what happened when these two guys met. it does not matter if you were fascinated by this train wreck.
 

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