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Was the death of the blue collar class a good thing?

 
 
ConstantlyQuestioning
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 09:11 am
Quote:
To what end? Personal happiness? Justice?


Both. Humans want to be happy, and it's just to let someone keep the fruits of their own labor.

Your life belongs to you and you alone. By extension the efforts of that life belong to you and you alone. It then follows that the fruits of that effort belong to you and you alone.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 09:16 am
ConstantlyQuestioning wrote:
Your life belongs to you and you alone. By extension the efforts of that life belong to you and you alone. It then follows that the fruits of that effort belong to you and you alone.


This is specious contention. "The fruits of that effort" cannot bloom, quicken and ripen without the complete panoply of society's efforts. Were you a solitary hunter/gatherer, making your own tools, your thesis might apply. We live in interdependent socities which cannot function without all the little cogs and wheels which we each of us represent. You many not agree with the Mountie's statements about moral obligation, but this species of crap conservative statement claiming "rugged individualism" are nothing but hot air.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 09:20 am
The issue is not whether it is a good thing for people to recognize their place and obligation to society and their interdependence upon one another. I doubt there are any here who see themselves as an island with no responsibility or relationship to any other.

The issue is whether it is moral for you to be generous and benevolent by obligating my lawfully earned property/resources in order to do that.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 09:26 am
Just about as moral as it is for a candidate to accept huge donations from the energy industry, and then formulate energy policy behind closed door, with representatives of that industry, and refuse to release any information about those deliberations. Just as moral as a huge tax give away to the wealthiest of citizens, those who benefit most from the interdependent society, and dump the burden onto our grandchildren. Just as moral as it is to wage war with authorization obtained through lies and deceit.

Typical conservative burroshito. This is a democracy. If the electorate wake up in the next eight months, and elect a president who reverses the theft of government revenues on behalf of the bloated cronies of the Republicans, and devote it to the funding of generous entitlement programs, that will be democracy in action, and every bit as moral as any act of the Hypocrite in Chief.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 09:26 am
and who woke on the wrong side of the bed this morning?? (the wrong side of the bed is, of course, not the left side)

Quote:
The question that springs from it is "Does society have the authority to force that moral duty on someone?" (How many times have we all heard "You can't legislate morality!"?)

Is a "moral society" a collection of people with similar morals or a collection of people forced to accept a given morality?


"You can't legislate morality" really speaks to a different problem...laws not making people gooder of heart. Or, it is sometimes used in the context of legislating private matters, eg bedroom, in line with some particular 'moral' view.

It's not an easy set of questions you ask. From where or from what does any 'moral truth' derive. How do we recognize one when we see one?

We can accept authority on the matter (church), but that's a bit of a problem in that religion A and religion B speak differently. We can give up the task, it being perceived as impossibly difficult, and fall back to something quite Hobbesian. Or we can go Millian-style, concluding the best we can hope for is a pragmatic 'get out of the way' set of policies. Or we can try to think about it further than that, and like Rawls or others, work out some systems and agreements to which all, or most of us, can reasonably agree.

One way to think of the problem is to consider what sort of community we wish to live in. For example, I support universal education not because it provides fodder for commerce, but because I'd much rather have educated and reasoning neighbors. In terms of taxation/sharing etc, I'd far rather live in a community where my neighbors are rather more like the priest from Les Miserable than like Gordon Gekko.

I'm sure we'd both agree that the aim is to find some system whereby the greater number of people are facilitated towards personal happiness. Not only does this seem prudent (they aren't likely to rip the community apart) and it addresses the moral component as well (which I know you are not deaf to).

I think that sense of moral duty is inherent in us, as biological creatures. And I think it can be encouraged or it can be denigrated. Gekko would denigrate it, but the priest would encourage it. Those are two extremes, of course, and my argument is weak because of that, but that's not to say the point is without any merit.

As I'm sure I mentioned another time, an essay Rawls wrote not long before he died, contained his admission that his 'Theory of Justice' has been written to attempt a bridge across the traditional divide between left/right as to this matter we are addressing. I think he did it. Unfortunately, rather more Europeans share my view than do Americans.
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 09:29 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Blatham writes:
Quote:
Citizen A is born with fetal alcohol syndrome, or with an IQ of 80, or with schizophrenia, or with serious physical malady, or into a poorly functioning family, or into severe poverty.

Citzen B is born golden, with great mental and physical attributes, and into a wealthy and well-connected family.


If my post is read objectively, one will see that I was quite specific that a moral society takes care of those who cannot care for themselves through no fault of their own. I also left room for voluntary charity toward those who need a leg up after they screwed up.

But I really would appreciate anybody explaining to me how it is moral, ethical, or just for the government to take the honorable and lawful earnings of Citizen A to give to Citizen B who made choices that made him far less well off?


Define taking care of.....I have a hadicapped son...the government has decided his life is worth 376.00 a month. Anything he goes out to earn is deducted dollar for dollar from his payments. If he decides to put 50.00 a month into savings so that by the time he is of retirement age he can have enough money to not be on the government tit, he's screwing up because as soon as he has 2000.00 worth of assets of any kind he's off the program. His medication without medicaid or insurance is 900.00 a month. He can't get health insurance for less than 500.00 a month because of his conditions. He certainly can't qualify for anything more than a minimum wage job.

So he can't afford to lose his 376.00 a month benefit and his medicaid, so what's his incentive to do anything but sit on his ass?

Great system we have here all right.
0 Replies
 
ConstantlyQuestioning
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 09:40 am
Quote:
"The fruits of that effort" cannot bloom, quicken and ripen without the complete panoply of society's efforts. Were you a solitary hunter/gatherer, making your own tools, your thesis might apply. We live in interdependent socities which cannot function without all the little cogs and wheels which we each of us represent.


Yes, we are dependent on each other to a point, which is why I think when honest hard working people fall on bad times, it's in society's interest to get them back on their feet.

However, I do not think it is in society's interest, nor is it a moral obligation, to carry dead weight. If someone shows no interest in imporiving their station, and expects society to cater to their laziness, then I say cut him lose. If an honest hard worker gets layed off, and works dilligently to improve his situation, then I say we should help him out.

BUT ULTIMATELY, we serve ourselves. Our lives belong to us. To say that it is our moral duty to help someone undeserving of help is to say that your life does not belong to you, but to the person whom who're obligated to help.

Quote:
but this species of crap conservative statement claiming "rugged individualism" are nothing but hot air.

Typical conservative burroshito.


Come on Set. I thought better of you than this.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 09:44 am
CQ wrote:
To say that it is our moral duty to help someone undeserving of help is to say that your life does not belong to you, but to the person whom who're obligated to help.


Precisely how are we to determine who is deserving and who is not? Exactly who is to make that determination? Absent more than anectdotal evidence and conservative rhetoric, i reiterate: " . . . but this species of crap conservative statement claiming "rugged individualism" are nothing but hot air.

Typical conservative burroshito."
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 09:46 am
Constantly Questioning wrote
Quote:
someone undeserving of help


And can you walk down the street and point out to whom you refer?

You define the problem so narrowly and self-servingly (we ought not to help those who don't deserve help) that it almost completely without value.
0 Replies
 
ConstantlyQuestioning
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 09:58 am
Quote:
. but this species of crap conservative statement claiming "rugged individualism" are nothing but hot air.

Typical conservative burroshito."


Sorry I tried.

Quote:
And can you walk down the street and point out to whom you refer?


Not at first glance, but after examining someone's actions, sure. What actions has the person taken to improve his situation? If the answer is "none", then I would classify that person as undeserving. If he points to all the applications/resumes that he sent out, mention all the interviews he's gone to, showed how he's cut back on unnecesssary spending to make up for the lack of income, etc, etc, etc... all things to demonstrate that he wants to help himself AS OPPOSED to expecting someone else to take care of him.

Quote:
You define the problem so narrowly and self-servingly (we ought not to help those who don't deserve help) that it almost completely without value.


And I think effort wasted on helping undeserving people is valueless when there are others who do deserve it.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 10:02 am
Just thought I would share Boortz's opinion on this...

Quote:
WHAT'S ANOTHER SIX BILLION? WHO'S COUNTING ANYWAY?

The Republican-controlled U.S. Senate has voted to add $6 billion in spending for child welfare for welfare brood mares. The vote was 78-20. Not even close. Thirty one Republicans voted for it. Irresponsible people have children they can't afford .. the government steps forward to take care of them ... and the small percentage of responsible people who actually pay taxes foot the bill.

This is harsh, I know, but if a woman can't care for a child she brought into this world then the state child welfare agencies should simply declare that child to be abused and remove it from that household. Foster care, orphanages, adoption ... whatever it takes .. but stop writing checks to these life-support systems for ovaries.

0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 10:02 am
Quote:
Not at first glance, but after examining someone's actions, sure. What actions has the person taken to improve his situation? If the answer is "none", then I would classify that person as undeserving.


Sure. And what percentage of the people in severe poverty, or say, unable to afford medical help, does this apply to?
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 10:09 am
McGentrix wrote:
Just thought I would share Boortz's opinion on this...

Quote:
WHAT'S ANOTHER SIX BILLION? WHO'S COUNTING ANYWAY?

The Republican-controlled U.S. Senate has voted to add $6 billion in spending for child welfare for welfare brood mares. The vote was 78-20. Not even close. Thirty one Republicans voted for it. Irresponsible people have children they can't afford .. the government steps forward to take care of them ... and the small percentage of responsible people who actually pay taxes foot the bill.

This is harsh, I know, but if a woman can't care for a child she brought into this world then the state child welfare agencies should simply declare that child to be abused and remove it from that household. Foster care, orphanages, adoption ... whatever it takes .. but stop writing checks to these life-support systems for ovaries.



yes these life support systems for ovaries....these uncared for drains on society.......but don't abort any of these unwanted children for God's sake, Jesus would prefer tolet them be born and live in abject poverty in a world where they don't have a chance at a good life...God bless.....
0 Replies
 
ConstantlyQuestioning
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 10:10 am
Quote:
Quote:
Not at first glance, but after examining someone's actions, sure. What actions has the person taken to improve his situation? If the answer is "none", then I would classify that person as undeserving.


Sure. And what percentage of the people in severe poverty, or say, unable to afford medical help, does this apply to?


I honestly don't know. Any answer I'd give would be only a guess.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 10:11 am
there are, as of yet undetermed in concrete terms, specific human needs that I believe a society of mankind is manifestly obligated to provide up to its capablity without regard to
Quote:
"I would classify that person as undeserving"
0 Replies
 
ConstantlyQuestioning
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 10:11 am
Quote:
yes these life support systems for ovaries....these uncared for drains on society.......but don't abort any of these unwanted children for God's sake, Jesus would prefer tolet them be born and live in abject poverty in a world where they don't have a chance at a good life...God bless.....


Actually I think Boortz supports abortion rights.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 10:15 am
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Just thought I would share Boortz's opinion on this...

Quote:
WHAT'S ANOTHER SIX BILLION? WHO'S COUNTING ANYWAY?

The Republican-controlled U.S. Senate has voted to add $6 billion in spending for child welfare for welfare brood mares. The vote was 78-20. Not even close. Thirty one Republicans voted for it. Irresponsible people have children they can't afford .. the government steps forward to take care of them ... and the small percentage of responsible people who actually pay taxes foot the bill.

This is harsh, I know, but if a woman can't care for a child she brought into this world then the state child welfare agencies should simply declare that child to be abused and remove it from that household. Foster care, orphanages, adoption ... whatever it takes .. but stop writing checks to these life-support systems for ovaries.



yes these life support systems for ovaries....these uncared for drains on society.......but don't abort any of these unwanted children for God's sake, Jesus would prefer tolet them be born and live in abject poverty in a world where they don't have a chance at a good life...God bless.....


Or, make contraception a legal requiremnet for Welfare. Pill, IUD, patch, whatever.
0 Replies
 
ConstantlyQuestioning
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 10:15 am
Quote:
there are, as of yet undetermed in concrete terms, specific human needs that I believe a society of mankind is manifestly obligated to provide up to its capablity without regard to Quote:
"I would classify that person as undeserving"


I disagree but am interested in what specific needs you think society is morally obligated to provide.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 10:17 am
ConstantlyQuestioning wrote:
Quote:
there are, as of yet undetermed in concrete terms, specific human needs that I believe a society of mankind is manifestly obligated to provide up to its capablity without regard to Quote:
"I would classify that person as undeserving"


I disagree but am interested in what specific needs you think society is morally obligated to provide.


Hmmm, only my opinion, but I would think rule of law, a trained police force and fire department. a healthcare facility within a reasonable distance, a guarantee of being able to persue life, liberty and happiness. Not a guarantee of catching, but at least pursuing...
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 10:17 am
Again and again the question is diverted here. It seems everybody wants to rephrase it.

I think we can all agree that a moral society cares for those who cannot care for themselves.'

The question I posed was: if Citizen A lawfully and ethically does what is necessary to provide a good living for himself/herself and his/her family, how is Citizen B who didn't and therefore is 'poor' entitled to anything Citizen A has?

I wish somebody here would answer that question head on.
0 Replies
 
 

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