6
   

Inflate or destroy self?

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2013 06:14 am
@igm,
igm wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

There is no problem with me KNOWING that most of what you say lately is nonsense.

Explain how you know that? Explain how there is definitely someone who can know and something that someone can know (if there is a someone) and that you (if there is a you) definitely knows there is some way of knowing that something?

I think you'll find it's the opposite of 'no problem'.

If how to know is axiomatic then as it cannot be based on evidence but just assumed as true then your ability to know... is a belief... so Frank does beliefs even though he says he doesn't.


Nice try, igm. No cigar.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2013 12:10 pm
@fresco,

Nothing in there is particularly new, nor is a 'solution' to the cogito. On the contrary, the idea that life operates under its own set of rules, independent and new as compared to the rules of classic or quantum physics and chemistry, leads to the idea of several levels in nature, each one building on the underlying level but not reductible to it. In this vision, the mind can be seen as just another level of nature. Ergo Descartes was at worse simplistic in seeing the two levels of living mater and mind as belonging to radically different orders. Rather, mind builds upon body, but cannot be reduced to it.

As an aside, I find it funny how pretty much all modern philosophers of cognition (particularly of anglo origin) are still kicking Descartes' dead body again and again, with very little effect since we still unable to account for the mind in a mecanical way (and IMO never will). Instead, they should try and build upon his ideas.

Quote:
2. What I mean by relativistic existence is that "observer" and "observered" are two sides of the same coin. "Things and their thingers" are coexistent and co-extensive. Neither has existential status its own right. ies)

You realize that there was a universe long before there was anyone observing it, right?

In my view, you are confusing the virtual world we construct unconsciously in our mind (complete with sounds and colors and smells which are pure mental constructs) with the real world out there (which essential nature is ultimately unknowable, but where the air vibrates, for instance, or light waves combines different waves lengths, or where entities emit chemicals floating in the air). What you say applies to our mental, virtual reconstruction of the world, e.g. to a vibrant orange color, the sound of a violin playing Vivaldi, the perfume of a rose, etc., but not to the real world out there, which exists whether or not somebody perceives it.

Quote:
3. Kuhn argued that "falsifiability" was aimed at distiguishing between "real science" from "pseudo-science" (specifically Marx and Freud) but had little relevence to "what scientists do"( which is paradigmatic,transient and aimed at elegance in attempts to predict and control).

Yes, Kuhn did refine and usefully critique Popper, but what I was referring to was Popper's three worlds, an idea he developed at the end of his life and exposed in annexes to his "Open Universe: An Argument for Indeterminism" (at least in the French edition): basically the idea exposed above about different levels of nature, each level building upon the level below rather than being reductible to it. In this view, the world of knowledge and ideas is to a degree autonomous from individual minds, themselves partly independent from the underlying biological world, itself partly independent from inanimated mater.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2013 12:26 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

igm wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

There is no problem with me KNOWING that most of what you say lately is nonsense.

Explain how you know that? Explain how there is definitely someone who can know and something that someone can know (if there is a someone) and that you (if there is a you) definitely knows there is some way of knowing that something?

I think you'll find it's the opposite of 'no problem'.

If how to know is axiomatic then as it cannot be based on evidence but just assumed as true then your ability to know... is a belief... so Frank does beliefs even though he says he doesn't.


Nice try, igm. No cigar.

You are incapable of defending your position you can only restate it...that amounts to a parlor trick...or more like flim-flam.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2013 12:32 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
You realize that there was a universe long before there was anyone observing it, right?

No. Only in the "mind's eye" of the one making such a statement. To argue otherwise is to fail to undestand the objections to "naive realism". This is the fundamental sticking point. And note too that the words "universe" and "before" also presuppose aspects of human cognition. In short your statement only has functional validity for current paradigmatic purposes. It may be the case that these views of "time" and "universe" will become simplistic historical anachronisms for future scientists exploring multi-dimensionality and "the observation of observation".

I don't agree with your interpretation of Capra, but then I have read the whole book. But thanks for the Popper comments. I will try to get round to researching them for my local philosophy discussion group.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2013 12:47 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
No. Only in the "mind's eye" of the one making such a statement. To argue otherwise is to fail to undestand the objections to "naive realism".


Well then, I must fail to understand the objections to "naive realism". That, or "non-naive realists" fail to understand my objections... :-)

I'd rather go for the latter. The idea that the universe depends on an observer to exist seems very naive to me. If only because an observer implies a living organism, and living organisms don't appear out of nowhere.

If planet earth was to be blown out to smitherines by a giant asteroid tomorrow, and all life as we know it would suddenly vanish, do you think the universe will also disappear?

It's basically another re-hash of man being the center of the universe. That's anthropocentric, religious, magic thinking, nothing more.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2013 12:50 pm
@igm,
igm wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

igm wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

There is no problem with me KNOWING that most of what you say lately is nonsense.

Explain how you know that? Explain how there is definitely someone who can know and something that someone can know (if there is a someone) and that you (if there is a you) definitely knows there is some way of knowing that something?

I think you'll find it's the opposite of 'no problem'.

If how to know is axiomatic then as it cannot be based on evidence but just assumed as true then your ability to know... is a belief... so Frank does beliefs even though he says he doesn't.


Nice try, igm. No cigar.

You are incapable of defending your position you can only restate it...that amounts to a parlor trick...or more like flim-flam.


I have explained my position on dozens of occasions...and you know that. I am not going to jump through hoops for you. If you are claiming that I cannot know when I am guessing...you are playing a game yourself...so deal with it.

If it makes you happy to think I am flim-flaming you...think it.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2013 12:51 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

Quote:
You realize that there was a universe long before there was anyone observing it, right?

No. Only in the "mind's eye" of the one making such a statement. To argue otherwise is to fail to undestand the objections to "naive realism". This is the fundamental sticking point. And note too that the words "universe" and "before" also presuppose aspects of human cognition. In short your statement only has functional validity for current paradigmatic purposes. It may be the case that these views of "time" and "universe" will become simplistic historical anachronisms for future scientists exploring multi-dimensionality and "the observation of observation".

I don't agree with your interpretation of Capra, but then I have read the whole book. But thanks for the Popper comments. I will try to get round to researching them for my local philosophy discussion group.


Can't you understand, Olivier, if Fresco says something is so...it has to be so. There can be no doubt about it.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2013 01:05 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Can't you understand, Olivier, if Fresco says something is so...it has to be so. There can be no doubt about it.


He is entitled to his opinion, and even to strongly held beliefs. I'm not shy of my own opinions either, as you may have noted. Makes for lively discussions... Smile
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2013 01:12 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
Can't you understand, Olivier, if Fresco says something is so...it has to be so. There can be no doubt about it.


He is entitled to his opinion, and even to strongly held beliefs. I'm not shy of my own opinions either, as you may have noted. Makes for lively discussions... Smile



Stick with it, Olivier. I like many of your opinions...and the fact that you consider them opinions. Fresco treats each of his pronouncements as though it were revelation from On-High. Been that way for years now.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2013 01:19 pm
@Olivier5,
What you dont "get" is that what we call a "thing" whether it be "a rock" "a wave" or "a living organism" only has "structure" or coherence relative to our evolutionary perceptual dispositions inolving the seeking of order. Different species classify their world differently according to their perceptual apparatus which unlike humans is often "hard wired". ( A frog for example will starve to death surrounded by what we see as dead insects because its apparatus cannot detect motionless ones) Not only do we have no access to an "independent reality" (Kant's noumena) thereby rendering the concept dubious, but we actively construct our segmentation of "the world" because we are co-extensive with it. Internal states.... define external states.... which affect internal states.... which redefine external states ad infinitum (Ref Piaget Assimilation-Accommodation)
Consensus in the segmentation process is a function of common physiology and in humans, common language. Language is not "representational of reality" (Rorty, Quine et al) It actively constructs it.
And if the argument for realism retreats to a final defence line of one about the "existence of fundamental undifferentiated stuff", the realist still has the problem of the meaning of "fundamental" and the nature of "stuff" especially given the nebulousness of such concepts in contemporary physics.


Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2013 01:22 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I like many of your opinions...and the fact that you consider them opinions. Fresco treats each of his pronouncements as though it were revelation from On-High. Been that way for years now.


I've noted a tendency in Fresco to assume he knows best, whereas of course, as everybody knows, I am the one who knows best... ;-)
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2013 01:28 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
I've noted a tendency in Fresco to assume he knows best, whereas of course, as everybody knows, I am the one who knows best... ;-)


You are assuming that Frank understands what "know" means ! Laughing
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2013 01:36 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

What you dont "get" is that what we call a "thing" whether it be "a rock" "a wave" or "a living organism" only has "structure" or coherence relative to our evolutionary perceptual dispositions inolving the seeking of order. Different species classify their world differently according to their perceptual apparatus which unlike humans is often "hard wired". ( A frog for example will starve to death surrounded by what we see as dead insects because its apparatus cannot detect motionless ones) Not only do we have no access to an "independent reality" (Kant's noumena) thereby rendering the concept dubious, but we actively construct our segmentation of "the world" because we are co-extensive with it. Internal states.... define external states.... which affect internal states.... which redefine external states ad infinitum (Ref Piaget Assimilation-Accommodation)
Consensus in the segmentation process is a function of common physiology and in humans, common language. Language is not "representational of reality" (Rorty, Quine et al) It actively constructs it.
And if the argument for realism retreats to a final defence line of one about the "existence of fundamental undifferentiated stuff", the realist still has the problem of the meaning of "fundamental" and the nature of "stuff" especially given the nebulousness of such concepts in contemporary physics.





What is the matter with you Olivier? Can you not see that Fresco has decided that "naive realists" HAVE TO BE WRONG?

How can you possibly still be arguing the point when Fresco has spoken?

The nerve of some people! Rolling Eyes
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2013 01:52 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
What you dont "get" is that what we call a "thing" whether it be "a rock" "a wave" or "a living organism" only has "structure" or coherence relative to our evolutionary perceptual dispositions inolving the seeking of order

Do you ever ask yourself why human beings (and pretty much every animal species -- we're just better at it than frogs are) have a tendency to identify patterns in the universe?

My answer is that, it gives us a Darwinian advantage, eg is spotting food or avoiding becoming food. A huge one, too, hence the long term evolutionary trend called cephalisation.

Now, the important point is: if there were no patterns in reality, out there in the real world, just inventing patterns out of the blue would not provide any Darwinian advantage. Ergo there are patterns in the world, there is such a thing as information (e.g. in DNA), irrespective of whether or not it is being analysed / spotted by a sentient being.

Quote:
Language is not "representational of reality" (Rorty, Quine et al) It actively constructs it.

Again, a very naive, "either or" representation of language. The dialectic between language and reality is more complex than any single one of these alternatives (either represent or construct). In fact language is both representing actual stuff and structuring that stuff in a certain way.

That is evidenced by the fact that most simple statements (e.g. "I am not a flower") can be translated into any language. Therefore, there exists a meaning which is independent from the actual language chosen to express it.

Je ne suis pas une fleur
Ich bin keine Blume
Man gul nestom
Etc...
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2013 02:02 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
What you dont "get" is that what we call a "thing" whether it be "a rock" "a wave" or "a living organism" only has "structure" or coherence relative to our evolutionary perceptual dispositions inolving the seeking of order

Do you ever ask yourself why human beings (and pretty much every animal species -- we're just better at it than frogs are) have a tendency to identify patterns in the universe?

My answer is that, it gives us a Darwinian advantage, eg is spotting food or avoiding becoming food. A huge one, too, hence the long term evolutionary trend called cephalisation.

Now, the important point is: if there were no patterns in reality, out there in the real world, just inventing patterns out of the blue would not provide any Darwinian advantage. Ergo there are patterns in the world, there is such a thing as information (e.g. in DNA), irrespective of whether or not it is being analysed / spotted by a sentient being.

Quote:
Language is not "representational of reality" (Rorty, Quine et al) It actively constructs it.

Again, a very naive, "either or" representation of language. The dialectic between language and reality is more complex than any single one of these alternatives (either represent or construct). In fact language is both representing actual stuff and structuring that stuff in a certain way.

That is evidenced by the fact that most simple statements (e.g. "I am not a flower") can be translated into any language. Therefore, there exists a meaning which is independent from the actual language chosen to express it.

Je ne suis pas une fleur
Ich bin keine Blume
Man gul nestom
Etc...


GO OLIVIER!!! YOU DA MAN!!!! Very Happy
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2013 02:07 pm
@Frank Apisa,
The use of word "wrong" merely denotes your ignorance. Philosophical paradigms are either more or less intellectually satisfactory, not "right" or "wrong". Those without the intellect to undertand that are merely embarassing themselves by commenting..
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2013 02:57 pm
@Olivier5,
The Darwinian advantage need not be one of "spotting structure" per se but of the ability for flexible re-structuring of "the world". (possibly a definition of intelligence ?)

I agree that "non-representationalism" was presented as a simplistic posture above. Its origins have at least two aspects:
1. the naive realism behind "representation" (picture) .
2. the constructivism of re-presentation (re-living or re-playing an interactional scenario)
German has separate words vorstellung and darstellung for these and it is the first that has been rejected by recent writers.
Post-modernists such as Derrida have exacerbated the abandonment of aspect 1 by emphasising the dynamism (non repeatablity) of linguistic contexts thereby highlighting the fluidity of what we call "reality".

My own view is that our "naive realism" with which we deal with "the every day world" is fuelled by the abstract persistence of words which denote repetitive relationships, rather than persistent properties of "objects" albeit that it is "permanent objects" we visualize.

As for your proposed isomorphism between "sentences" in different languages and "objects", allow me merely to observe that JFK's "Ich bin ein Berliner" would involve a paragraph of footnotes to explain its historical meaning. As Derrida pointed out, the meaning of "what is the case" inextricably implies "what is not the case". It is a "privileged selection" for particular contextual purposes.




Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2013 03:57 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
The Darwinian advantage need not be one of "spotting structure" per se but of the ability for flexible re-structuring of "the world".

No way. Just inventing structure where it does not pre-exists has never helped anyone survive.

Take the concept of "flower". It's pretty well defined, scientifically, as the sexual organs in the most evolved vegetal species (angiosperms), and its parts are also well defined. So much so that flower structure is used to classify species in taxons. Now, the question is: do flowers actually exist, objectively, beyond the concept, or are we humans inventing that pattern?

The answer is: we are not inventing it. Even though we are sometimes assuming a flower where there are in fact hundreds of micro-flowers in a packed inflorescence (e.g. in daisies), there are such things as the sexual organs of plants. And those sexual organs do perform a standard function in all plants, which is reproduction. The fact that flowers exist objectively can be proven, e.g. by the fact that we are not the only species spotting them. Bees and other insects are pretty good at it, because they depend on them to survive, and many flowers actually depend on insects spotting them for their core function (pollinisation). That's "why" flowers are easy to spot, with colors and perfume, by the way... It's not for human beings to enjoy them, it's for pollinisators to be able to spot them. There are even insect species who can spot ONE PARTICULAR SPECIES OF FLOWER, and they depend on that particular flower to survive (and that flower usually depends on that particular insect species for pollinisation).

Quote:
German has separate words vorstellung and darstellung for these and it is the first that has been rejected by recent writers.

Recent writers? Ferdinand de Saussure first made that point, and he wrote before WW1...

Quote:
As Derrida pointed out, the meaning of "what is the case" inextricably implies "what is not the case". It is a "privileged selection" for particular contextual purposes

Derida wrote many books, with the intent of being understood (not that he always succeeded in that, mind you). Therefore he believed in the capacity of language to convey meaning, independently of the context.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2013 04:22 pm
@Olivier5,
At this point I suggest we can go no further because we are arguing from different paradigms. Your usage of "existence" clearly indicates this, and you are simply contradicting Derrida's own contention that there is no meaning outside of context.

As far as I am concerned we are merely "language using frogs" (in the sense of my example above) selectively segmenting our species specific, and culture specific ephemeral "realities".

I rest my case, or perhaps I should say "the case of the current fresco" !

Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2013 04:26 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
I rest my case, or perhaps I should say "the case of the current fresco" !


Well, your case does need a rest...
 

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