@gungasnake,
There you go with the baffle them with bull **** stick again. Post the science that said that ddt dident weaken the egg shells of birds so that they were easily crushed. It dident kill them directly just caused them to die before they were hatched.
@Walter Hinteler,
Practice, Walt. Practice.
@gungasnake,
You use it to delouse yourself for a year and if your scales are dandy after a a year, come back and report your findings.
@RABEL222,
A friend took a course in ornathology under Heinz Meng, America's greatest expert on raptors and the man who first bred peregrines in captivity (and then released them into Baltimore to help deal with the horrific pigeon problems of the 70s).
My buddy asked Meng point blank in front of 30 people in the classroom about DDT and birds and bird eggs. Meng replied that everything anybody in the class had ever heard or read about DDT was a bunch of bullshit, that it had ZERO effect on birds and birds' eggs, and that the only thing it appeared to have any effect on was insects. Likewise from the DDT FAQ:
http://junksciencearchive.com/ddtfaq.html
Quote:
VI. Egg-shell thinning
DDT was alleged to have thinned bird egg shells.
Many experiments on caged-birds demonstrate that DDT and its metabolites (DDD and DDE) do not cause serious egg shell thinning, even at levels many hundreds of times greater than wild birds would ever accumulate.
[Cecil, HC et al. 1971. Poultry Science 50: 656-659 (No effects of DDT or DDE, if adequate calcium is in diet); Chang, ES & ELR Stokstad. 1975. Poultry Science 54: 3-10 1975. (No effects of DDT on shells); Edwards, JG. 1971. Chem Eng News p. 6 & 59 (August 16, 1971) (Summary of egg shell- thinning and refutations presented revealing all data); Hazeltine, WE. 1974. Statement and affidavit, EPA Hearings on Tussock Moth Control, Portland Oregon, p. 9 (January 14, 1974); Jeffries, DJ. 1969. J Wildlife Management 32: 441-456 (Shells 7 percent thicker after two years on DDT diet); Robson, WA et al. 1976. Poultry Science 55:2222- 2227; Scott, ML et al. 1975. Poultry Science 54: 350-368 (Egg production, hatchability and shell quality depend on calcium, and are not effected by DDT and its metabolites); Spears, G & P. Waibel. 1972. Minn. Science 28(3):4-5; Tucker, RK & HA Haegele. 1970. Bull Environ Contam. Toxicol 5:191-194 (Neither egg weight nor shell thickness affected by 300 parts per million DDT in daily diet);Edwards, JG. 1973. Statement and affidavit, U.S. Senate Committee on Agriculture, 24 pages, October 24, 1973; Poult Sci 1979 Nov;58(6):1432-49 ("There was no correlation between concentrations of pesticides and egg shell thinning] .") ]
Experiments associating DDT with egg shell thinning involve doses much higher than would ever be encountered in the wild.
[J Toxicol Environ Health 1977 Nov;3(4):699-704 (50 ppm for 6 months); Arch Environ Contam Toxicol 1978;7(3):359-67 ("acute" doses); Acta Pharmacol Toxicol (Copenh) 1982 Feb;50(2):121-9 (40 mg/kg/day for 45 days); Fed Proc 1977 May;36(6):1888-93 ("In well-controlled experiments using white leghorn chickens and Japanese quail, dietary PCBs, DDT and related compounds produced no detrimental effects on eggshell quality. ... no detrimental effects on eggshell quality, egg production or hatchability were found with ... DDT up to 100 ppm)]
Laboratory egg shell thinning required massive doses of DDE far in excess of anything expected in nature, and massive laboratory doses produce much less thinning than is seen in many of the thin-shelled eggs collected in the wild.
[Hazeltine, WE. 1974. Statement and affidavit, EPA Hearings on Tussock Moth Control, Portland Oregon, p. 9 (January 14, 1974)]
Years of carefully controlled feeding experiments involving levels of DDT as high as present in most wild birds resulted in no tremors, mortality, thinning of egg shells nor reproductive interference.
[Scott, ML et al. 1975. Poultry Science 54: 350-368 (Egg production, hatch ability and shell quality depend on calcium, and are not effected by DDT and its metabolites)]
Egg shell thinning is not correlated with pesticide residues.
[Krantz WC. 1970 (No correlation between shell-thinning and pesticide residues in eggs) Pesticide Monitoring J 4(3): 136-141; Postupalsky, S. 1971. Canadian Wildlife Service manuscript, April 8, 1971 (No correlation between shell-thinning and DDE in eggs of bald eagles and cormorants); Anon. 1970. Oregon State University Health Sciences Conference, Annual report, p. 94. (Lowest DDT residues associated with thinnest shells in Cooper's hawk, sharp-shinned hawk and goshawk); Claus G and K Bolander. 1977. Ecological Sanity, David McKay Co., N.Y., p. 461. (Feeding thyreprotein causes hens to lay lighter eggs, with heavier, thicker shells)]
Among brown pelican egg shells examined there was no correlation between DDT residue and shell thickness.
[Switzer, B. 1972. Consolidated EPA hearings, Transcript pp. 8212-8336; and Hazeltine, WE. 1972. Why pelican eggshells are thin. Nature 239: 410-412]
Egg shells of red-tailed hawks were reported to be six percent thicker during years of heavy DDT usage than just before DDT use began. Golden eagle egg shells were 5 percent thicker than those produced before DDT use.
[Hickey, JJ and DW Anderson. 1968. Science 162: 271-273]
To the extent egg shell thinning occurred, many other substances and conditions could have been responsible...............
Basic reality: DDT was and remains a legitimate candidate for greatest thing the white man ever invented. They had malaria, polio, bed bugs, and a number of similar scourges all but eliminated from the United States and the potential was there to eliminate them from the planet.
Since DDT was banned, there have been upwards of 100,000,000 needless deaths from malaria and many times that number of lives impacted or ruined. That makes Rachel Carson the greatest mass murderer in the history of the planet.
Jees, once the right wing gets a stupid idea, the facts never ever have any effect on them. Countries with tropical diseases have always been free to use DDT, and it is in fact widely used where needed. Broadcast use of it for agricultural purposes has led, as simple genetics indicated it would, to developing immunity to it in mosquitoes, to the point where it's ineffective in many countries that formerly used it. Topical use, on mosquito nets and hose walls, is widely used and has been proven more effective, with fewer long-term effects, than general spraying. There are also a wide variety of next-generation insecticides that work better under present-day conditions.
DDT is an estrogen-mimic, which has the potential to screw up reproductive processes in animals (which, of course, we are), and it and its breakdown products have indeed been identified as a probable pathway for eggshell thinning, which still, forty years after the "research" gunga cites, is still the accepted explanation for the crash in populaqtion of birds, including large predator birds like the eagles that his OP was so tender-hearted about, in which DDT concentrates.
In short, more gunga crap.
@MontereyJack,
Isn't DDT short for Dramatic Dream Team?
@MontereyJack,
Bet Gunga jumped right past my post without reading it. I at least scanned his posting even when I saw it was from a right wing paper.
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
A friend took a course in ornathology under Heinz Meng, America's greatest expert on raptors and the man who first bred peregrines in captivity (and then released them into Baltimore to help deal with the horrific pigeon problems of the 70s).
My buddy asked Meng point blank in front of 30 people in the classroom about DDT and birds and bird eggs. Meng replied that everything anybody in the class had ever heard or read about DDT was a bunch of bullshit, that it had ZERO effect on birds and birds' eggs, and that the only thing it appeared to have any effect on was insects.
A nearby falconry (
Adlerwarte Berlebeck) has bred peregrine falcons (falco peregrinus) since 1943.
Obviously, Professor Ian Newton FRS, OBE (besides other positions
Chairman of the Board of The Peregrine Fund), has a very different opinion about DDT ... But he taught ornithology at Oxford University, not ornathology in the USA.
Another sort of a basic reality here...
Somewhere in the mid sixties to early seventies, farmers started keeping chickens in cages. After that, nobody ever really cared about hawks or eagles enough to shoot them and they came back. That had nothing to do with DDT.
I'd GUESS that the ongoing decline of raptors prior to that corresponded roughly to improvements in shotguns and shot shells between the early 1800s and 1960.
So I was coaching my boys at a local "indoor" soccer field, which happens to be located outside, and while walking around the dasher boards, I noticed quite a number of dead birds lying on the ground. As I said, they were dead. So I'm trying to figure out why there are so many dead birds lying around -- maybe 10 to 15 -- when I realize it's the large plexiglass pieces on the ends of the field. The birds fly into the plexiglass and kill themselves.
Our Arizona birds are dumb and frail too.
@Ticomaya,
Have you tested it to see if it would work on demoKKKrats?? I mean, just put up a few large sheets of plexiglass in places like Balimore or Chicago...
@Walter Hinteler,
Bald Eagles - DDT and the Great Lakes
................................................................
http://www.rbg.ca/baldeagles
Quote: It has been decades since Bald Eagles nested on the Canadian shores of Lake Ontario. In fact, by the early 1980s, mostly as a result of widespread use of the pesticide DDT, there were only four active nests in all of the Great Lakes. That equals approximately 15 surviving birds. The species was all but locally extinct.
Nowadays, with the effects of DDT behind us — it was phased out beginning in the early 1970s — and with serious conservation efforts, the Bald Eagle has made a comeback. There are now 31 active nests on the Great Lakes, and another 30 on lakes north of 49th parallel. But there has not been a single successful nest on the Canadian shores of Lake Ontario. Until now!
Bald Eagles have overwintered in Cootes Paradise at Royal Botanical Gardens for the last few years. In 2008 a pair stayed for the entire summer — which lead our conservation staff to believe that the time was right for a pair to settle in and call Cootes their own. This means building a nest, laying eggs, raising young and becoming a highly visible and inspirational symbol of why we need to think green and save the environment for generations to come.
Royal Botanical Gardens has the perfect environment to convince Bald Eagles to settle in. These large predators need at least 100 hectares of undisturbed forest to nest and roost, plus an adjacent 50 hectares of wetlands to allow them to catch fish. We have it all right here, and on March 22 and 23, 2013, the first eaglets to hatch on the Canadian shoreline of Lake Ontario is over 50 years, broke free of their eggs: a testament to the environmental restoration work that has taken place at RBG and Hamilton Harbour.
The eagles have chosen a nest site that can only be readily viewed from our Marsh Boardwalk on Marshwalk Trail. Visitors are welcome but are reminded to stay on the marked trails only and keep dogs leashed. A 75-hectare Special Protection Area surrounds the nest site – this species is protected by Ontario’s Endangered Species Act and it is illegal to enter the area south of Bull’s Point Trail and east of Hopkins Loop.
To learn more, download leaflets and maps on Viewing the Bald Eagles, Eagle Photography, and the History of Bald Eagles at RBG.
@Ticomaya,
Ticomaya wrote:
Our Arizona birds are dumb and frail too.
When I've been to Arizona, I noticed similar. But nothing like that in the Navajo reservation.
It has to do with not observe daylight saving time!
@hamburgboy,
Repeating a lie doesn't make it true.
Once more:
http://junksciencearchive.com/ddtfaq.html
Quote:
VII. Bald eagles
DDT was blamed for the decline in the bald eagle population.
Bald eagles were reportedly threatened with extinction in 1921 -- 25 years before widespread use of DDT.
[Van Name, WG. 1921. Ecology 2:76]
Alaska paid over $100,000 in bounties for 115,000 bald eagles between 1917 and 1942.
[Anon. Science News Letter, July 3, 1943]
The bald eagle had vanished from New England by 1937.
[Bent, AC. 1937. Raptorial Birds of America. US National Museum Bull 167:321-349]
After 15 years of heavy and widespread usage of DDT, Audubon Society ornithologists counted 25 percent more eagles per observer in 1960 than during the pre-DDT 1941 bird census.
[Marvin, PH. 1964 Birds on the rise. Bull Entomol Soc Amer 10(3):184-186; Wurster, CF. 1969 Congressional Record S4599, May 5, 1969; Anon. 1942. The 42nd Annual Christmas Bird Census. Audubon Magazine 44:1-75 (Jan/Feb 1942; Cruickshank, AD (Editor). 1961. The 61st Annual Christmas Bird Census. Audubon Field Notes 15(2):84-300; White-Stevens, R.. 1972. Statistical analyses of Audubon Christmas Bird censuses. Letter to New York Times, August 15, 1972]
No significant correlation between DDE residues and shell thickness was reported in a large series of bald eagle eggs.
[Postupalsky, S. 1971. (DDE residues and shell thickness). Canadian Wildlife Service manuscript, April 8, 1971]
Thickness of eggshells from Florida, Maine and Wisconsin was found to not be correlated with DDT residues.
Data from Krantz, WC. 1970. Pesticides Monitoring Journal 4(3):136-140.
State Thickness (mm) DDE residue (ppm)
Florida 0.50 About 10
Maine 0.53 About 22
Wisconsin 0.55 About 4
U.S. Forest Service studies reported an increase in nesting bald eagle productivity (51 in 1964 to 107 in 1970).
[U.S. Forest Service (Milwaukee, WI). 1970. Annual Report on Bald Eagle Status]
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service biologists fed large doses of DDT to captive bald eagles for 112 days and concluded that "DDT residues encountered by eagles in the environment would not adversely affect eagles or their eggs."
[Stickel, L. 1966. Bald eagle-pesticide relationships. Trans 31st N Amer Wildlife Conference, pp.190-200]
Wildlife authorities attributed bald eagle population reductions to a "widespread loss of suitable habitat", but noted that "illegal shooting continues to be the leading cause of direct mortality in both adult and immature bald eagles."
[Anon.. 1978. U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Endangered Species Tech Bull 3:8-9]
Every bald eagle found dead in the U.S., between 1961-1977 (266 birds) was analyzed by U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service biologists who reported no adverse effects caused by DDT or its residues.
[Reichel, WL. 1969. (Pesticide residues in 45 bald eagles found dad in the U.S. 1964-1965). Pesticides Monitoring J 3(3)142-144; Belisle, AA. 1972. (Pesticide residues and PCBs and mercury, in bald eagles found dead in the U.S. 1969-1970). Pesticides Monitoring J 6(3): 133-138; Cromartie, E. 1974. (Organochlorine pesticides and PCBs in 37 bald eagles found dead in the U.S. 1971-1972). Pesticides Monitoring J 9:11-14; Coon, NC. 1970. (Causes of bald eagle mortality in the US 1960-1065). Journal of Wildlife Diseases 6:72-76]
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service biologists linked high intake of mercury from contaminated fish with eagle reproductive problems.
[Spann, JW, RG Heath, JF Kreitzer, LN Locke. 1972. (Lethal and reproductive effects of mercury on birds) Science 175:328- 331]
Shooting, power line electrocution, collisions in flight and poisoning from eating ducks containing lead shot were ranked by the National Wildlife Federation as late as 1984 as the leading causes of eagle deaths.
[Anon. 1984. National Wildlife Federation publication. (Eagle deaths)]
I'm sure that gunga will now disregard all sites from google, because:
Quote:For a period of ten years, all electricity produced by the windfarm will be sold to Google under a power purchase agreement announced on 4th June 2013. Google will use the windfarm's output to power its datacenter in Finland with renewable energy.
Source
The 72MW wind project
Maevaara will consist of 24 units of wind turbines and will be located in an area between the villages Ohtanajärvi and Suaningi, Pajala and Aapua, Övertorneå in Norrbotten County, in Sweden.
@Walter Hinteler,
The Swedish ornithology society
Hallands ornitologiska förening thinks, by the way, that their researches proved that DDT was one of the main reasons for the nearly extermination of the sea eagle (aka white-tailed eagle).
