35
   

Did Jesus Actually Exist?

 
 
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2014 06:52 am
@timur,
timur wrote:

You are lying and it seems to be an obsession.

I found quite a few historians, even though you deny them such quality.

An historical Jesus that drew considerable crowds had to leave traces in history that should be a lot more prominent.

Instead, you have a guy that wrote : I read somewhere that one guy named Yeshu existed.

Quite feeble, in my view.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2014 07:06 am
@timur,
timur wrote:
I found quite a few historians, even though you deny them such quality.

You seem to think I have super-powers, but I can't strip a trained historian from his training. And don't consider me the only judge either. Other posters here could benefit from this information, if it is genuine and true... Don't be shy, share your errr... knowledge?

Quote:
An historical Jesus that drew considerable crowds had to leave traces in history that should be a lot more prominent.

That's not the question. We don't actually know how large a crowd he could draw.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2014 07:09 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Oh, I see. You do not think Timur has insulted Ohm by using a picture of Ohm as his avatar.


No I do not, you're just being nasty.


I am not being nasty...I am being a bit snide..as return fire for his nastiness.

Timur seems to me to be a pompous ass...but you are correct that he has been helpful with some of his comments.

Quote:

I respect Timur quite a lot, I think he's smart and he's been quite helpful regarding art. He's not someone I'd pick a fight with.


Not sure why you wanted me to know that, but thank you for sharing it.

I am not "picking a fight"...I am just having a bit of fun poking at him in return for some of his shots at me.

I do not take this stuff very seriously...and perhaps you would do well to lighten up a bit.

Smile!


https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQjUq-XRW34mR0GFMvsBnlUxmqZvceB8EoDxJ6TVxkL-Hj9liHg
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2014 07:15 am
@timur,
If you say it long enough, you may even start to believe it...
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2014 07:20 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
By the way...I defy you to find any such boast...here in A2K or over in Abuzz...anywhere in any of the thousands upon thousands of posts I have made.

That charge by you is a complete fabrication.

I doubt we hear anything else about it, though...because you do not usually acknowledge when you have made a mistake...and apologize for the mistake.


http://able2know.org/topic/217301-305#post-5585492

I went a bit too far when said I anyone, but you did just boast about your intelligence to CI, and how you could beat him in an IQ test.


Actually, Izzy, I was not even boasting there. I was reacting to a charge from ci that I was ignorant. And I would take an IQ test against him with high stakes.

No boast there...just a response to being called ignorant.


Quote:
So yes I made a mistake, but it was one of the scale of your boasting. You're not quite as boastful as I had suggested.


Almost an acknowledgement of being wrong...but couched in a way that changes it from an acknowledgement to a deflection.

For the record, I have mentioned many, many times that I do not consider myself to be the sharpest tool in the A2K shed...nor the brightest light on the tree. And I am not.

So, Izzy, you can take that "boasting" charge and file it where the sun does not shine.


Quote:

I do acknowledge when I make a mistake, but you don't even know when you've made a mistake.


Actually, you don't. I do know when I've made a mistake...and I truly acknowledge them...rather than the mealy-mouthed nonsense you try to pass off as acknowledgement.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2014 07:27 am
@timur,
timur wrote:

Actually, Frank is boasting all the time.

Not only about IQ but also about all kinds of matters.

He boasts about his "excellent grasp of the English language", having been in a previous life, an editor.

Having read quite a lot of his utterances, and even with my limited skills of your fine language (English), his proficiency didn't strike me as particularly impressive.

On other fields, I consider his knowledge to be average to nonexistent.

This said, he excels in boasting:

http://i61.tinypic.com/5y855g.jpg



Nah...it only seems that way to a pompous ass like you. Actually, I am proud of being proficient in the English language...and have had success as an amateur in having essays and op pieces published in lots of places. (Almost always without so much as a comma changed, by the way!)

I love the fact that you included that picture.



https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTGkMM5GpUtpvmryqIQp0cOh4oKZ9pEeplvGKNUpxnmTD9Ma4uJ
0 Replies
 
carloslebaron
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2014 08:39 am
The argument that Yeshu (Jesus) didn't exist because no records of birth can be found, or because the idea that is a creation invented by some others who had a religious agenda, is the same that saying that the Pilgrims never existed.

Someone can invent the theory that there are no records from Europe of the names of the travelers in that boat. The "stone" where they put their feet was selected later on by people with an agenda who created the whole myth.

This someone can say that the records of names is just manipulated writings which were made decades later by these people who invented the whole legend.

And this "theory" can continue and continue in base of imaginations.

In reality, the Pilgrims indeed existed, as well Jesus existed. Then, what is needed is to start a dumb theory to deny the existence of both.

For this reason, it is laughable the ridiculous position of many who by different reasons, they repeat and repeat themselves that Yeshu didn't exist, because the existence of Yeshu points them guilty of their wrongdoings, like homosexuals who reject and attack the bible because the bible declares them "dead" and even calls them "dogs".

These deniers of the existence of Yeshu repeat and repeat their rejection, "praising" that by repeating a lie a million times it might become a truth someday... I can bet they are "evolutionists" (from worst, simpler and inferior to better, more complex and superior) Lol.

0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2014 08:41 am
@Frank Apisa,
If you truly lightened up, and did not take this stuff seriously you wouldn't be someone who periodically gets put on ignore by a lot of people because they just sick and tired of your repetitive nonsense. It's a bit like a radio DJ playing the same song over and over again. There's only so many times one wants to hear it.

In that you are unique, most ignorees are put on for life. You're like someone whose attendance at a party makes the other guests think twice before going. "He's quite nice really, but he can be a bit much, and I don't think I'm in the mood right now to put up with his nonsense. And what's with all the bloody bold print? I think it's a bit sad don't you?"

If I lightened up any more I'd defy gravity.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2014 08:42 am
I still don't even understand why it matters. Myths have been built up around buttloads of historical people. That question is trivial.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2014 08:53 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

If you truly lightened up, and did not take this stuff seriously you wouldn't be someone who periodically gets put on ignore by a lot of people because they just sick and tired of your repetitive nonsense. It's a bit like a radio DJ playing the same song over and over again. There's only so many times one wants to hear it.


If people want to put me on IGNORE...they put me on IGNORE.

I am having a ball here...lots of interesting and fun discussions...and sometimes a bit of argument with people who take things much too seriously.

If you disagree...you disagree.

If you were able to see the smile on my face right now...you know that I am just fine with what is happening here.


Quote:
In that you are unique, most ignorees are put on for life. You're like someone whose attendance at a party makes the other guests think twice before going. "He's quite nice really, but he can be a bit much, and I don't think I'm in the mood right now to put up with his nonsense. And what's with all the bloody bold print? I think it's a bit sad don't you?"


I am here...and if anyone does not want to come because they think I am a bother...they stay away. I think anyone who feels that way has that right. What I think is sad...is that you apparently think that way...but here you are.

Quote:
If I lightened up any more I'd defy gravity.


I think not, Izzy. You actually let things like bold print have an effect on you. But I am delighted that you think that to be the case.

Stay happy...and light as a feather, Izzy.


https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTKYQOMk-0R72lvXIO0E6V__gfwcJGLNt5gm_-chrlgly81fq98
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2014 08:56 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:

I still don't even understand why it matters. Myths have been built up around buttloads of historical people. That question is trivial.


It is indeed. The message is much more important than the messenger in this case...tough as it is for some people to accept that.

Someone or several someone's existed that put this into motion. All the considerations about what began it...are just for kicks. The message...or at least, part of the message...IS of significance.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2014 09:09 am
@Frank Apisa,
Your use of bold print doesn't 'get' to me at all. I was doing you a favour by pointing out it looked ridiculous, but you go ahead. You've never let the thought of appearing ridiculous stop you before.
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2014 09:28 am
@FBM,
Quote:
I still don't even understand why it matters. Myths have been built up around buttloads of historical people. That question is trivial.

Just like the issue of the historicity of Shakespeare is trivial. What matters are the plays bearing his name.

Even more important for me, is the fact that these controversies never produce any new knowledge; there are totally sterile scientifically. Just like the Global Warming doubters have never contributed anything to our understanding of climatology, the Jesus deniers have contributed nothing to our understanding of this story, or of the Gospels. You can read the Jesus article in a 100-years-old encyclopedia and not find one single point on which modern scholarship is clearly at odd. That debate has raged for years and years, and never produced anything of value...

But perhaps that's precisely the real aim of these hyper-skeptical polemists: hamper the possibility of knowledge. That's obviously the goal of the GW deniers and their orporate handlers, for instance.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2014 09:33 am
@Olivier5,
Your insults are all that keep me posting here. That and I don't want the truth to get buried in all the obsessive posting.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2014 09:42 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Your use of bold print doesn't 'get' to me at all. I was doing you a favour by pointing out it looked ridiculous, but you go ahead. You've never let the thought of appearing ridiculous stop you before.


I thank you for your concern.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2014 10:35 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Just like the issue of the historicity of Shakespeare is trivial.


Not the same at all. Shakespeare left a will, he was a member of the Lord Chamberlain's Men who performed 12th Night in front of the court of Queen Elizabeth I. The same group became the King's Men under the patronage of James I and performed for him. In short there is a lot of evidence other than his writings.

No scholar doubts the existence of Shakespeare although some doubt he wrote all the plays himself.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2014 10:42 am
@izzythepush,
I don't know anybody who doubts that George Washington was a historical person, but there's still a lot of mythology attributed to him. A kernel of truth enveloped by an accretion of folk tales crafted to wow the masses. Very mundane.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2014 10:45 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
No scholar doubts the existence of Shakespeare although some doubt he wrote all the plays himself.

And no scholar doubt the historicity of Jesus either. Still, in the grand scheme of things, their work is more important than their lives. As long as we have the plays, who cares if Shakespeare wrote them? nd as long as we have the Gospels, who cares about who exactly was the man Jesus? Only the specialists. It's a trivial issue for the rest of us. I agree with FBM here.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2014 10:47 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
No scholar doubts the existence of Shakespeare although some doubt he wrote all the plays himself.

And no scholar doubt the historicity of Jesus either.


But they do, that's why this thread exists.
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2014 10:53 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
But they do, that's why this thread exists.

No they don't. This thread exists because an A2K poster created it... None of the doubters here has been able to present one single living scholar doubting the historicity of Jesus.

I managed to find ONE such scholar (Carrier, a young chap trying to apply the Bayes theorem to history), from a total population of what? a few thousands scholars? One among thousands... And his very own blog says that the Jesus myth thesis has never been printed in a peer-reviewed publication until he managed to get one of his books printed. I can dig up the blog if you're interested.
 

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