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Did Jesus Actually Exist?

 
 
Leadfoot
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2015 09:06 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I assume you are talking about the Catholic Church? Yep, that's about the point where modern day religions got their start. I don't see much resemblance to what Jesus taught though.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2015 10:11 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:
I assume you are talking about the Catholic Church?
Well, actually I wrote about the early Christianity.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2015 12:58 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
I'm not sure that he or his disciples intended to or did start one. Jesus just told them to go around telling people what he said. They did that but for the most part were too busy to start a religion. The religion that eventually got going didn't resemble what Jesus said.

The religionS thar eventually got going were and still are evolving, like everything else including Judaism. I see that as a good thing, was never too impressed by fundamentalism or essentialism.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2015 02:23 pm
This joker Leadfoot is both deceitful and confused.
0 Replies
 
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2015 04:07 pm
@Leadfoot,
What do you suppose Jesus purpose was Lead?
Leadfoot
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2015 05:23 pm
@Smileyrius,
Quote:
@Leadfoot,
What do you suppose Jesus purpose was Lead?


I think just to give us a personal account of what it was that God wanted and expected of us. A personal example of the kind of commitment to God and his principles that is appropriate in this earthly existence. To show that if your commitment has the proper priority, even the prospect of death should not cause you to waiver from it.

That is what Jesus's sacrificing his earthly life was meant to show. It had nothing to do with any magical property of his blood or his body as many religions imply. That misses the whole point.
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2015 06:02 pm
@Leadfoot,
I am in agreement with degrees of what you say, what of the messiah title attributed to Jesus? do you believe Jesus was the Messiah the Israelites had been waiting for? If so, what do you think that entailed?

Also, what are your thoughts on Luke 4:43?
neologist
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2015 09:24 pm
@HesDeltanCaptain,
HesDeltanCaptain wrote:
. . . Was Jesus' intent to create a religion apart from Judaism? Or did disciples and church leaders do that on their own after his death? . . .
Jesus' intent, in part, was to extend the promise God made to Abraham and make it available to all nations.
Quote:
And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice. (Genesis 22:18)
Speaking of the law of Moses, Jeremiah was inspired to write of a new covenant:
Quote:
31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,”
declares the Lord. (Jeremiah 31:31 NIV)
This Jesus did on the night of the Hebrew Passover in 33 C.E.

The prophecy of Daniel, Chapter 9 gives additional light on what this would mean for Israelites, particularly this statement in vs. 27
Quote:
And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease.
The week being a period of seven years starting with the beginning of Jesus' ministry and ending with the baptism of Cornelius, the first non Jew recorded as becoming a Christian. (The half of the week marked Jesus' death on the above mentioned Passover.)
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Oct, 2015 10:36 am
Found this article below quite strange…. The idea that the Quran would predate Mohamad is not based on the reported facts, and is probably motivated by polemics rather than science.

For one thing, the dates do not imply anteriority but simultaneity. A bracket of 568 to 645AD is given from carbon dating, while Muhammad lived between 570AD and 632AD. For another, the sheepskin could be significantly older than the text written on it. Mustafa Shah from SOAS is right, me think...

Quote:
The 'Birmingham Koran' fragment that could shake Islam after carbon-dating suggests it is OLDER than the Prophet Muhammad

By Jennifer Newton for Mailonline
31 August 2015

Fragments of the world's oldest Koran, found in Birmingham last month, may predate the Prophet Muhammad and could even rewrite the early history of Islam, according to scholars.

The fragments of the Koran then lay undiscovered until they were sent for radio carbon dating at the University of Oxford.

The pages, thought to be between 1,448 and 1,371 years old, were discovered bound within the pages of another Koran from the late seventh century at the library of the University of Birmingham.

Written in ink in an early form of Arabic script on parchment made from animal skin, the pages contain parts of the Suras, or chapters, 18 to 20, which may have been written by someone who actually knew the Prophet Muhammad - founder of the Islamic faith.

The pages were carbon-dated by experts at the University of Oxford, a process which showed the Islamic holy book manuscript could be the oldest Koran in the world. The discovery was said to be particularly significant as in the early years of Islam, the Koran was thought to have been memorised and passed down orally rather than written.

But now several historians have said that the parchment might even predate Muhammad.

It is believed that the Birmingham Koran was produced between 568AD and 645AD, while the dates usually given for Muhammad are between 570AD and 632AD.

Historian Tom Holland, told the Times: 'It destabilises, to put it mildly, the idea that we can know anything with certainty about how the Koran emerged - and that in turn has implications for the history of Muhammad and the Companions.'

Keith Small, from the University of Oxford's Bodleian Library, added: 'This gives more ground to what have been peripheral views of the Koran's genesis, like that Muhammad and his early followers used a text that was already in existence and shaped it to fit their own political and theological agenda, rather than Muhammad receiving a revelation from heaven.

However, these claims are strongly disputed by Muslim scholars, with Mustafa Shah from the School of Oriental and African Studies in London also telling the paper: 'If anything, the manuscript has consolidated traditional accounts of the Koran's origins.'


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3216627/Koran-Birmingham-thought-oldest-world-predate-Prophet-Muhammad-scholars-say.html
0 Replies
 
trichakra
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2016 05:01 am
I believe in Jesus and i believe that Jesus Actually Exist.
rosborne979
 
  2  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2016 07:02 am
@trichakra,
trichakra wrote:

I believe in Jesus and i believe that Jesus Actually Exist.

What is the basis for your belief?
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2016 07:20 am
@rosborne979,
Who cares?
0 Replies
 
trichakra
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 19 Oct, 2016 03:34 am
Yes he did exist.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Oct, 2016 04:10 am
"Jesus" may have existed. However, there is zero historical evidence for such a claim.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Wed 19 Oct, 2016 05:53 am
This question is asked in thread after thread. As was noted by setanta, there is no evidence that proves he existed. So, perhaps he did, perhaps not.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Oct, 2016 07:13 am
I'll have to look them up but there are in fact a few 'hard' signs that he lived here awhile. I think it was Caligula's ( Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus) scribe who mentioned Jesus in one of his reports that was found intact. There are a couple of others too.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Oct, 2016 07:30 am
@Smileyrius,
Quote:
I am in agreement with degrees of what you say, what of the messiah title attributed to Jesus? do you believe Jesus was the Messiah the Israelites had been waiting for? If so, what do you think that entailed?

Also, what are your thoughts on Luke 4:43?

I must have missed this earlier.

I have no reason to believe he is not the Messiah of the Israelites. Not sure about the rest of your question. They had heard of him foretold and he came. Pretty straight forward. What am I missing?

Same story on Luke 4:43. He taught in one city for awhile then told the people he had people to see, things to do elsewhere. I thought 4:41 is much more thought provoking.
0 Replies
 
timur
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Oct, 2016 08:16 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

I'll have to look them up but there are in fact a few 'hard' signs that he lived here awhile. I think it was Caligula's ( Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus) scribe who mentioned Jesus in one of his reports that was found intact. There are a couple of others too.

"Signs" are not evidence of the existence of Jesus.

Any real proof?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2016 07:09 am
@timur,
Quote:
Leadfoot wrote:

I'll have to look them up but there are in fact a few 'hard' signs that he lived here awhile. I think it was Caligula's ( Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus) scribe who mentioned Jesus in one of his reports that was found intact. There are a couple of others too.

Quote:
timur says:
Signs" are not evidence of the existence of Jesus.

Any real proof?

So you want to throw out all written historical evidence? That eliminates a whole bunch of people that most of us believe lived in the past.

Get real.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2016 07:13 am
@Leadfoot,
Historical evidence needs to be corroborative and consistent across multiple sources in order to gain any level of veracity.

Reasonable people do an unbiased comparison of this type of historical evidence in order to determine the probability of accuracy.
 

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