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Did Jesus Actually Exist?

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 10:34 am
@Olivier5,
That's no a sneer, it's a recommendation that you learn about the most important of early church writers. Thanks to Pamphilus and Eusebius, the Origen version of the acceptable canon became the acceptable canon.

This is the page on Origen at Early Christian Writings-dot-com. I highly recommend this online resource. This is their page on early church fathers. There are also links at the top of the page under the rubrics "Apocrypha," "New Testament" and ""Gnostics."

Do you have some constitutional objection to educating yourself.

You're a snide son of a bitch, and i'm done with you now.
farmerman
 
  4  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 10:36 am
@JPB,
Quote:
Paul, who is credited with changing the message from the story from Jesus to the story about Jesus, existed. Pauline Christianity,
Exactly, Paul created "the Christ". Even Dawkins, in the "God delusion" stated that Jesus did most likely exist although an argument, not widely supported has been engaged of the denial of his life". Historicity v "the Historical Jesus" are two different arguments and Ive always favored the "So what of he did exist" attitude, because someone had to manufacture a legend and a mythos about the man although an argument can be made that even PAul didn't feel that Jesus was divine. The gospel of John was really the first writing to proclaim divinity for the boy. The tricks he did in luke were just that, tricks written a hundred years after the fact and an attempt at dressing up the mans legend after PAul.
When Paul began his Acts, there were but a hundred or less followers of the Jesus cult in Nabathaea. The Jesus club was competing with a bunch of other cults, like Isis, who was even celebrated by Calligula. Yet, qbout 300 years after Paul, Christianity, a full blown religion with all its initial pomp and a status boost for Jesus where he was finally claimed to be divine and sent from a God to be a "savior" separate from the Jews immortal , god /leader. 300 years after Paul, Jesus is now the majority religion of the EMpire.

Pauls big contribution IMHO, was to transform Christianity, as a spinoff from jewish monotheism , from an ETHNIC centered religion to a universal one.
Im stickin to that
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 10:37 am
@Setanta,
Insults are for the weak minded.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 10:42 am
@farmerman,
Hear hear . . .
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 11:14 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Pauls big contribution IMHO, was to transform Christianity, as a spinoff from jewish monotheism , from an ETHNIC centered religion to a universal one.


Yes, that's his main contribution, and a great one!
0 Replies
 
Lustig Andrei
 
  2  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 01:56 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

A bitch fight about Josephus, however, is or little interest to me. As i've already pointed out, of far more importance is that people believed he existed.

I do want to say that i completely agree with JPB's characterization of this religion as Pauline Christianity. It's not the religion of Jesus, it's the religion of Paul.


Who was it referred to modern Christianity as 'the Pauline heresy'?
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 02:23 pm
Whether a single person, Jesus, existed or not is not as important as the fact that there was a movement in Judaism at that time that treated some of the teachings contained in the Old Testament with the scorn and approbation they so richly deserved.

And whether or not Jesus actually existed as a single person is not as important as the fact that the institution "Christianity" has had an impact on life on planet Earth...a rather significant impact.

Some of the impact has been positive (in my opinion)...and some negative (again, in my opinion).

There appears to be no way to KNOW if a single individual, the Jesus mentioned in the Bible, existed. There doesn't seem to be clear, non-ambiguous, probative evidence to make a guess either way.

Why bother making a blind guess either way?
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 02:34 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Of course he did exist.


Were you there?
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 04:26 pm
@glitterbag,
You think wrong.

I created this thread to divert the debate on Jesus from the following discussion: http://able2know.org/topic/215009-3

If it keeps anyone busy, so much the better.

I have no reason to care whether or not the man actually existed. I don't subscribe to the belief that he is divine.

I simply don't accept the notion that he is a fictional character; very often (but not always) advanced by people who are trying to fire a broadside at Christians.

Clearly there are people who wish, for whatever, reason to hold forth on the existence of Jesus. I've done them a favor.

Unfortunately though, it didn't end the blah blah in the other thread as I hoped it would.

Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 04:53 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Strangely, I agree with everything that you believe, Finn. So why do you single me out as an unbeliever and put me in the same category as BillRM, edarblyth and cicerone impostor, all of whom profess to think that Jesus of Nazareth is a figure of myth? I have never said that.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 04:57 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
If I have mischaracterized your actual opinion/belief, I apologize.
Lustig Andrei
 
  2  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 05:01 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Apology accepted. I should add only that, as Frank Apisa has already suggested, we actually know virtually nothing about this person. I do not believe much of what it says in the so-called Gospels. That's where the mythology comes in.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 05:27 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
Were you there?


I wasn't there when Napoleon was around either.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 05:48 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Whether a single person, Jesus, existed or not is not as important as the fact that there was a movement in Judaism at that time that treated some of the teachings contained in the Old Testament with the scorn and approbation they so richly deserved.


I agree by and large. The message is more important than the messenger. Still, the historicity of Jesus is interesting from a purely historical view point, as well as to better understand his message. And several answers to this question can be offered based on existing evidence. There's nothing wrong with that, it's called science.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 05:48 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
I don't think anyone believes much of what it says in the Gospels.

I don't see anyone turning the other cheek, loving their enemies or selling their possessions to give to the poor. Do you?

Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 05:50 pm
@maxdancona,
Cynic in a bubble.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 06:02 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
I simply don't accept the notion that he is a fictional character; very often (but not always) advanced by people who are trying to fire a broadside at Christians.


Well said.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 06:10 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,


Quote:
Jesus Christ was a man who traveled through the land
A hard-working man and brave
He said to the rich, "Give your money to the poor,"
But they laid Jesus Christ in His grave

He went to the preacher, He went to the sheriff
He told them all the same
"Sell all of your jewelry and give it to the poor,"
And they laid Jesus Christ in His grave.

This song was written in New York City
Of rich man, preacher, and slave
If Jesus was to preach what He preached in Galilee,
They would lay poor Jesus in His grave.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 May, 2013 01:48 am
@Lustig Andrei,
I don't know LA, that flitted through my mind, too, but i was unwilling to post it if i didn't have an attribution.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 May, 2013 03:28 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
I simply don't accept the notion that he is a fictional character; very often (but not always) advanced by people who are trying to fire a broadside at Christians.

Clearly there are people who wish, for whatever, reason to hold forth on the existence of Jesus. I've done them a favor.

Unfortunately though, it didn't end the blah blah in the other thread as I hoped it would.




Why would you rise to BillRM's bait? It was very crudely done, as most of his posts are. Of course it didn't end the blah blah on the other thread. You're arguing with someone who is incapable of entertaining the notion he could be wrong, and now he's got two places to further his incoherent babbling.

As Glitterbag has already said, you're reacting emotionally. Try taking a few minutes to think things through next time.
0 Replies
 
 

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