4
   

until

 
 
WBYeats
 
Reply Fri 24 May, 2013 03:36 am
UNTIL means up to the point in time or the event mentioned

egUntil she spoke I hadn't realized she wasn't English.
egUntil now I have always lived alone.
egThe street is full of traffic from morning till night.
egYou can stay on the bus until London.

But is the following ambiguous? I've asked people around, but we can't settle on a definite answer:

-Until now there is no information.

Does it mean now there is info?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 4 • Views: 1,724 • Replies: 33
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 May, 2013 04:09 am
@WBYeats,
Yes, it sounds as though the implication is that now there is information. A native speaker who wished to indicate that there has been no information, and still is none, would likely say: "To this point, there is no information."
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 May, 2013 04:12 am
Paul can make it clearer . . .

0 Replies
 
WBYeats
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 May, 2013 05:01 am
@Setanta,
Thank you~

But...is this YES to

-But is the following ambiguous?

or

-Does it mean now there is info?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 May, 2013 05:05 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Yes, it sounds as though the implication is that now there is information.
0 Replies
 
WBYeats
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jun, 2013 06:10 pm
If now there is, isn't it be WAS instead of IS?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jun, 2013 08:44 pm
@WBYeats,
Quote:
But is the following ambiguous? I've asked people around, but we can't settle on a definite answer:

Until now there is no information.

Does it mean now there is info?


It sounds a wee bit odd using the present simple with a word that encompasses some point in the past to now.

Until now there has been no information.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2013 02:19 am
@WBYeats,

Quote:
-Until now there is no information.

Does it mean now there is info?


I'd say no, there is no information yet.
WBYeats
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2013 05:23 am
@McTag,
Thanks all.

If I wanted to say now there is, then can I say?:

Not until now is there any information.

(I'm not sure whether this is clearer or without ambiguity...
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2013 08:03 am
@WBYeats,

Only now have we received some information.

Quote:
Not until now is there any information.

(I'm not sure whether this is clearer or without ambiguity...


It's okay.
Or, not until now has there been any information.
0 Replies
 
WBYeats
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Jun, 2013 09:52 pm
This sentence structure has plagued me so long.

When we use the inversion form, the meaning should not be altered at all.

-Never have we met such a great difficulty.

and

-We have never met such a great difficulty.

should be identical in meaning.

How come

-There isn't any information until now.

and

-Not until now is there any information.

are different?
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jun, 2013 01:21 am
@WBYeats,
Quote:
How come
-There isn't any information until now.
and
-Not until now is there any information.
are different?


They are not materially different. The meaning is the same.

But...you could read more into it.

With the second one, you definitely know (because of the word Not) that some information has been received.
Although arguably, "until" plays the same part in the first.

If you consider "There isn't any information up to now" then you know no information has been received.
"There isn't any information until now" is a bit different. Some information may have been received, but the statement is slightly ambiguous.
"Not until now has any information been received" is more definite, because the "Not" is emphasised.

okay?
0 Replies
 
WBYeats
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jun, 2013 01:25 am
Oh I see. Thank you~
0 Replies
 
WBYeats
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jun, 2013 01:27 am
When there's no context, is the following also ambiguous?:

-Until now I do not betray him.
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jun, 2013 03:40 am
@WBYeats,

Quote:
-Until now I do not betray him.


It's not grammatically correct.

But you could say, "I did not betray him until now", and also, "until now I did not betray him."
"I have not betrayed him until now."

and various other possibilities.
WBYeats
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jun, 2013 07:22 am
Thank you~

Do

-"I did not betray him until now"
-"until now I did not betray him."
-"I have not betrayed him until now."

all have the same meaning of 'not betraying someone in a past period but betraying him/her at the present moment'?
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jun, 2013 04:30 pm
@WBYeats,
Yes, they do.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jun, 2013 06:48 pm
@McTag,
Quote:
-Until now I do not betray him.



Quote:
It's not grammatically correct.


Just musing.

It's certainly an odd collocation, but I wonder if the present simple [or is it just this particular verb?] used for importance [see examples below] would always be impossible with "until now"?

Until this second, I do not hate him.

Until now, I do not love her.

McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Jun, 2013 01:00 am
@JTT,

Hi JTT, good morning.

Could you now tell us just how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Jun, 2013 10:34 am
@McTag,
There's that knee jerk McTag reluctance to think.

And yet, on occasion we see you do just that, McTag.
 

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