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Old Story, may have some teeth after all! Check this out!

 
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 03:16 am
Gee, I wonder why Chirac was so against removing the tyrant?

Washington Times wrote:
BAGHDAD, Iraq, Jan. 28 (UPI) -- Documents from Saddam Hussein's oil ministry reveal he used oil to bribe top French officials into opposing the imminent U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.

The oil ministry papers, described by the independent Baghdad newspaper al-Mada, are apparently authentic and will become the basis of an official investigation by the new Iraqi Governing Council, the Independent reported Wednesday.

"I think the list is true," Naseer Chaderji, a governing council member, said. "I will demand an investigation. These people must be prosecuted."

Such evidence would undermine the French position before the war when President Jacques Chirac sought to couch his opposition to the invasion on a moral high ground.

A senior Bush administration official said Washington was aware of the reports but refused further comment.

French diplomats have dismissed any suggestion their foreign policy was influenced by payments from Saddam, but some European diplomats have long suspected France's steadfast opposition to the war was less moral than monetary.

"Oil runs thicker than blood," is how one former ambassador put his suspicions about the French motives for opposing action against Saddam.

Al-Mada's list cites a total of 46 individuals, companies and organizations inside and outside Iraq as receiving Saddam's oil bribes, including officials in Egypt, Jordan, Syria, the United Arab Emirates, Turkey, Sudan, China, Austria and France, as well as the Russian Orthodox Church, the Russian Communist Party, India's Congress Party and the Palestine Liberation Organization.


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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 8,982 • Replies: 124
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 03:20 am
"Saddam bribed Chirac"

Does it not bother you in the least that this is not true? Rolling Eyes
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 03:26 am
Of course it would. Why do you say that?
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 03:28 am
I say that because it's not true and you are posting it. I wondered if it bothered you to be posting a blatant lie. I suspect you did not know it was a lie.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 03:32 am
Craven, I also posted the source, and the title is the title of the story. I also heard it on CNN. What makes you think it is untrue? I wouldn't intentionally post a blatant lie.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 03:44 am
Read the article you posted Bill, nowhere does it mention Chirac being "bribed" outside of the sensationalist title. The reason for this is because there's not a single shred of evidence to support the claim.

Charles Pasqua is named in the Iraqi documents I have read but he has been estranged from Chirac since endorsing Chirac's opponent in a 1995 election so even if that were true the connection to Chirac is still nowehere to be found.

Here's a pro-Bush blog criticizing the misleading headline:

http://www.blogsforbush.com/mt/archives/000522.html

Furthermore, the rest of the "evidence" is based on documents whose veracity has not been established and several similar "revelations" have been found to be outright forgeries.

The "evidence" also indicts liberals such as Jimmy Carter. You do realize that if proven true, there would be charges of treason? Or at least violation of US laws since Iraqi trade was forbidden by sanctions?

What you posted is that someone found a list of names. And said list both did not include Chirac and its veracity is not established. The implication that the bribery occured is simply that, an unproven implication.

This is similar to the story about the Roland missles. The initial release of unverified allegations is released and people start parroting it all over the web, but don't bother to note that verification of the claim is still absent.

Note the threats to "prosecute". Where is the prosecution? Probably in the same place where the verification of these claims is.
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IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 04:02 am
...well....this thread was over before it began....
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 04:10 am
It's an old story, from January. The verification of the implied claims never materialized.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 04:14 am
I'll agree with the blogger that the headline was premature... and I'll change the title to a question. Posting an as-of-yet not substantiated newspaper article is hardly grounds to accuse me of posting a blatant lie. Chill dude. Time will tell if there is truth in the tale or not.
Ps. I saw you weren't feeling good... feel better.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 04:16 am
How unobservant of me. Sorry... I'll try to kill it.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 04:30 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Posting an as-of-yet not substantiated newspaper article is hardly grounds to accuse me of posting a blatant lie. Chill dude.


Sorry Bill, that sounds like I have offended you and didn't mean to.

I do consider the claim that Chirac was bribed to be a blatant lie but don't fault you for that (though I do think the Washington Times practiced some very shoddy sensationalist journalism).

Heck, I've even posted urban legends, reposting a falsehood can happen to anyone and I sure as hell don't want you to feel bad about it.
0 Replies
 
IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 04:33 am
Anybody know if the Times ever officially disavowed or apologized for publishing the article?

Its hard to fault Bill - he posted an article from a legitimate website, as opposed to the Weekly Standard or Intellectual Conservative.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 04:37 am
As far as I know they haven't. Many other agencies such as CNN (as Bill notes) and ABC ran it, but careful reading will reveal that the actual articles are usually not inherently false (except for things like the headline).

What they are reporting is that some document with names was found, with unamed persons making anonymous quote and implications.

A couple of named persons threaten prosecution and the admin is allegedly aware of it.

Nothing has happened wither way (that I am aware), neither verification or definitive debunking.

Personally I think there won't be much more either way (establishing it as true or definitively false).

But the damage is done, people in debates everywhere are claiming that France was bribed using these documents as the basis for the claim.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 04:42 am
Embarrassed It's cool dude. I deserved that slap. I feel pretty stupid for not noticing the date. Oh well. I have done stupider things and no doubt will again.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 04:44 am
But it so wasn't a slap at you, 'twas a slap at a headline that you are not responsible for.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 04:54 am
Okay, I understood your first explanation... but I still deserve a slap. :wink:
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 05:06 am
Bill, I think you are trying to circumvent my clearly posted price for such services.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 07:20 am
Bill, never take personally Craven's (or anyone else's) refuting something masquerading as the truth published in the Washington Times.
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Titus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 08:43 am
Two points here:

1. The 'bribe' angle is taken directly from OxyCotin Limbaugh's talking points;

2. Does anyone in their right mind believe anything from the Moonie-owned Washington Times?

Case closed.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2004 12:53 pm
Does this re-open this discussion with a more credible source?

New York Times wrote:
WASHINGTON ?- Never has there been a financial rip-off of the magnitude of the U.N. oil-for-food scandal.

At least $5 billion in kickbacks went from corrupt contractors ?- mainly French and Russian ?- into the pockets of Saddam and his thugs. Some went to pay off his protectors in foreign governments and media, and we may soon see how much stuck to the fingers of U.N. bureaucrats as well.

Responding to a harangue in this space on March 17, the spokesman for Kofi Annan confirmed that the secretary general's soft-spoken son, Kojo, was on the payroll of Cotecna Inspections of Switzerland until December 1998. In that very month, the U.N. awarded Cotecna the contract to monitor and authenticate the goods shipped to Iraq.

Prices were inflated to allow for 10 percent kickbacks, and the goods were often shoddy and unusable. As the lax Cotecna made a lot of corporate friends, Iraqi children suffered from rotted food and diluted medicines.

The U.N. press agent also revealed that Benon Sevan, Annan's longtime right-hand man in charge of the flow of billions, was advised by U.N. lawyers that the names of companies receiving the contracts were "privileged commercial information, which could not be made public." Mr. Sevan had stonewalling help.

To shift responsibility for the see-no-evil oversight, the U.N. spokesman noted that "details of all contracts were made available to the governments of all 15 Security Council members." All the details, including the regular 10 percent kickback to the tune of $5 billion in illegal surcharges? We'll see.

To calm the belated uproar, Annan felt compelled to seek an "independent high-level inquiry," empowered by a Security Council resolution, as some of us called for.

Nothing doing, said France's U.N. ambassador, Jean-Marc de la Sablière. The money for the huge heist known as the Iraq-U.N. account passed exclusively through BNP Paribas. French companies led all the rest (what's French for "kickback"?), though Vladimir Putin's favorite Russian oligarchs insisted on sharing the wealth. That explains why Paris and Moscow were Saddam's main prewar defenders, and why their politicians and executives now want no inquiry they cannot control.

Nor are the White House and State Department so eager for a real investigation, because as the truth emerges, the U.N. may use the furor as cover for refusal to confer its blessing on the new Iraq. Our present and former U.S. ambassadors to the U.N. would have to take issue with Annan if he tried to hide under their wing. Peter Burleigh and Andrew Hillman, our frequent representatives on the "661 committee" ?- so named for a sanctions resolution ?- are not about to be the U.N.'s scapegoats.

If the secretary general appoints a Franco-Russian Whitewash Team, to whom can the world turn?

1. The Iraqi government-in-formation. Spurred by Kurds who have been blowing the whistle on this superscam for five years, free Iraq has hired accountants and lawyers to sift through captured bills and contracts in Baghdad. Former spooks are freelancing usefully. Paul Bremer, our man in Baghdad, has placed a trove of additional half-corrupted tapes and damaged and damaging documents under seal to be turned over after June 30, Sovereignty Day.

2. The House International Relations Committee's chairman, Henry Hyde, whose interviewers are in New York today, will hold initial hearings on April 21. Congress's investigative arm, the General Accounting Office, will testify about the scope of the chicanery that it estimates at $10 billion (including Saddam's clandestine oil smuggling to Syria and Jordan). It's a start that should awaken Senate Foreign Relations as well as Justice.

3. The press, stimulated by U.N. stonewalling, is on the trail.

Al Mada led the way. Already denying the feisty Iraq newspaper's findings are a former French interior minister, a pro-Saddam member of Britain's Parliament, Arab writers and a financier reportedly behind a Scott Ritter film. The Times, Wall Street Journal and Sunday Telegraph have been exposing the outline of what Newsday admits is "the most underreported story of the year." Among magazines, National Review is out front with no interest shown by The New Yorker and Newsweek.

All of us need an embittered whistleblower. If an ex-U.N. type named Shaukat Fareed reads this ?- call me.

(My thanks to McG for digging this up)
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