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New annoyance in US - German relationship

 
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Apr, 2008 07:00 pm
Here's an interesting link about the new German movie about the Red Baron of WWI. Apparently it is the first time since WWII that Germany has glorified one of its national war heroes:

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,164234,00.html

As the article relates, the Red Baron enjoyed his "kills."

I make this post to balance the thought that the U.S. was somehow involved in what the Northern Alliance did. I don't believe many of our U.S. war heroes "relished" their victories like the Red Baron. Perhaps, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones?
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Apr, 2008 07:33 pm
Foofie wrote:
I don't believe many of our U.S. war heroes "relished" their victories like the Red Baron. Perhaps, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones?


Yeah.

Too many German aristocrats who happen to be triplane fighter pilots are posting on A2K already.

This madness must stop.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2008 06:55 am
old europe wrote:
Foofie wrote:
I don't believe many of our U.S. war heroes "relished" their victories like the Red Baron. Perhaps, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones?


Yeah.

Too many German aristocrats who happen to be triplane fighter pilots are posting on A2K already.

This madness must stop.


You think that Germans that have aristocratic ancestry don't know it? Europeans know their respective ancestry better than Americans, since churches kept good Baptismal records and people lived near the cemeteries of their families.

My point is Germany, as a culture, enjoyed its victories. Relished them perhaps. I find it hypocritical to make accusations regarding America, since it did not do what the Northern Alliance did. It's like blaming Israel for the Christian militia that supposedly did something, a number of decades ago, in those refugee camps in Southern Lebanon. Yes, and Israel was blamed. As though they had total control of the Christian militia.

My point is the U.S. is kept to such a high standard of morality that it supposedly must stop atrocities perpetrated by others. Why is there no moral backlash for this movie glorifying a war hero that relished his WWI "kills"?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2008 02:21 pm
Foofie wrote:
Why is there no moral backlash for this movie glorifying a war hero that relished his WWI "kills"?


According to what I could find out the film starts on April 10 in German cinemas.

Website
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2008 03:15 pm
Actually, there isn't a country in this world who doedsn't admire the heroes of war. It's a human condition; even skilled enemy fighters are admired for their skill; it's happened throughout human history, and will continue on for the future of mankind as long as wars happen.
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2008 06:21 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Actually, there isn't a country in this world who doedsn't admire the heroes of war. It's a human condition; even skilled enemy fighters are admired for their skill; it's happened throughout human history, and will continue on for the future of mankind as long as wars happen.


You know the United States is damned if we do, and damned if we don't - be a policeman in the world that is. When we are a policeman in the world, we are criticized for being involved for supposedly ulterior motives. When we don't act like the policeman in the world, as perhaps in this case with the Northern Alliance, we are still criticized. I wonder if our critics just have a problem with the United States regardless?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2008 06:55 pm
Foofie wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
Actually, there isn't a country in this world who doedsn't admire the heroes of war. It's a human condition; even skilled enemy fighters are admired for their skill; it's happened throughout human history, and will continue on for the future of mankind as long as wars happen.


You know the United States is damned if we do, and damned if we don't - be a policeman in the world that is. When we are a policeman in the world, we are criticized for being involved for supposedly ulterior motives. When we don't act like the policeman in the world, as perhaps in this case with the Northern Alliance, we are still criticized. I wonder if our critics just have a problem with the United States regardless?


As with most issues of this world, we will have those who criticize us and those who praise us for the same actions. It's because us humans are subjective animals with differring degrees of interests and right and wrong.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Apr, 2008 08:47 am
One thing is that we can't do is go to war based on lies. That is Empire Building, not policeman! Then, we can not stay and fight in the middle of a Civil War. People aren't stupid, they can see right through these kinda scenerios.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Apr, 2008 09:16 am
I wouldn't pay much attention to Foofie's remarks, guys, if i were you--he is prone to just making **** up, apparently for no other reason than to have something to argue about.

In the early days of World War II, one of our first heroes was Colin P. Kelly. Now, it happens that for what he actually did, Kelly deserved to be described as a hero. However, as is pointed out in the Wikipedia article i have linked:

Quote:
Early reports misidentified the Ashigara [my note: the Imperial Navy cruiser which he had actually attacked] as the battleship Haruna, and also mistakenly reported that he had crashed his plane into the smokestack of the Haruna, becoming the first Suicide pilot of the war.


When i was in high school in the early 1960s, this version of events was still being taught as factual history. What makes it even more ironic is that the use of suicide pilots by the Japanese was held up as evidence that they were "less human" and less humane than Americans, and that they placed little value on human life. But cognitive dissonance is nothing new in human history, or in historiography.

In the Great War, Eddie Rickenbacker of the United States Army Air Service ended the war with 26 kills. American standards of confirmation were more rigorous than that of other nations, so his 26 kills is "impressive" in consideration of how long he flew in combat. From that time forward, Rickenbacker was the standard by which fighter pilots were judged--American "aces" measured their achievement against the 26-skill standard. So for example, when people disputed that Greg "Pappy" Boyington of the United States Marines got his 26th kill over Rabaul on the day he was shot down, those disputing the claim were savagely attacked, and although the eyewitness accounts of his "kill" disagree, they are almost never disputed--getting that 26th kill and matching Rickenbacker was a crucial milestone in a fighter pilots career.

I suggest that Foofie watch a series on the History Channel called Dogfight. I don't usually watch the History Channel because most of their "history" bears that relationship to history that Christian Science does to science. But i like this series, if only for the CGA with which they recreated the aerial combat--in fact, that's the only reason i watch it. They interview the pilots involved if they are still living, and most are American, although they have interviewed Israelis, Russians, Japanese and Vietnamese, too. One thing that stands out is the excitement, and the smiles, which these men display, when they talk about their dogfights, and their kills. To attempt to suggest that Richthofen was somehow extraordinary, some kind of monster, is bullshit.
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Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Apr, 2008 02:01 pm
I wish to die in Germany without regret.
I have nothing to do with the past history nor I wish to entangle with any unfulfilled dreams
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High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Apr, 2008 02:54 pm
Setanta wrote:
I wouldn't pay much attention to Foofie's remarks, guys, if i were you--he is prone to just making **** up, apparently for no other reason than to have something to argue about.

........................ To attempt to suggest that Richthofen was somehow extraordinary, some kind of monster, is bullshit.


http://whatihaveread.net/i/0571.jpg

What? Setanta, you never knew that Snoopy is a subversive traitor?! We should be grateful to Foofie for drawing our attention to this fact <G>
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Apr, 2008 02:59 pm
just as an aside :
i find it interesting that former enemies (such as former german sub-marine personnel and canadian sub-hunter personnel , as just one such example) , who fought each other tooth-and-nail during WW II will sometimes have reunions to swap tales .
we just recently had a report on CBC-TV from one such reunion in canada - those old salts didn't seem to care what side they had fought on ; they saw each other as "comrades" and not as former "enemies" .
hbg
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Apr, 2008 03:00 pm
High Seas wrote:
Setanta wrote:
I wouldn't pay much attention to Foofie's remarks, guys, if i were you--he is prone to just making **** up, apparently for no other reason than to have something to argue about.

........................ To attempt to suggest that Richthofen was somehow extraordinary, some kind of monster, is bullshit.


http://whatihaveread.net/i/0571.jpg

What? Setanta, you never knew that Snoopy is a subversive traitor?!


Charles Schultz passed away some years ago, but I still enjoy his Peanut cartoons, and remember the Red Baron one.
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High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Apr, 2008 03:02 pm
Cicerone - anyone who doesn't love the Snoopy cartoons is a sicko!

I also loved the Red Baron series.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Apr, 2008 03:05 pm
High Seas wrote:
Cicerone - anyone who doesn't love the Snoopy cartoons is a sicko!

I also loved the Red Baron series.


I heard Obama doesn't like Snoopy and has a garfield desk calendar.
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Apr, 2008 03:07 pm
http://snoopn4pnuts.com/cart/images/rst23.jpg

even i love snoopy - even though i was on the other side at one time .
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High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Apr, 2008 03:11 pm
Who cares about "sides", Hamburger? Love of flying transcends such minor temporary considerations - and the Red Baron truly was a very great pilot Smile

http://www.snoopy.com/comics/peanuts/fun_and_games/images/wallpaper/flyingace_wallpaper_tn.gif
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Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Apr, 2008 03:11 pm
My cut and paste today is this.

"One thing is that we can't do is go to war based on lies. That is Empire Building, not policeman! Then, we can not stay and fight in the middle of a Civil War. People aren't stupid, they can see right through these kinda scenerios."

Just presue this thread and find out the person who had mirrorrored my views in better ENGLIGH
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Apr, 2008 03:13 pm
Leaving aside presue, which is not a word in English to my knowledge, i'd just point out that the foregoing was a non sequitur even by Rama-lama-ding-dong's less than stringent standards.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Apr, 2008 03:15 pm
Ramafuchs wrote:
mirrorrored


Ha! I've got the same problem. With some words, it's hard to know where exactly to stop typing. Like, with banananana.... for example.
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