Men will never be free until . . .

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

In baptism, a person repeats magic words and then is totally immersed in water to symbolize their own death.
How is this not a ritual?

Magic words? The main reason for baptism is to symbolize one's dedication.

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@Setanta,

Insofar as religion, by definition, requires some acknowledgment of a god or gods, you are right. I will continue with mine.

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@neologist,

I have no doubt of that, nor have i any particular objection to the thought. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of your "anti-priest" rants.

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@neologist,

My understand of JW baptism is that everyone who is baptized is asked two questions with rote answers. Anyone who doesn't give the answers to these questions don't get baptized.

Correct me if I am wrong, but there are magic words that need to be said to be baptized.

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@maxdancona,

And for the record, I have nothing against Jehovah's witnesses (at least not any more than I have with any religion).

What I am objecting to is the prideful boast that Jehovah's Witnesses aren't just another religion. There is nothing that Jehovah's Witnesses believe that is unique and there is nothing in the Jehovah's Witness experience that isn't experienced in other faiths.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

My understand of JW baptism is that everyone who is baptized is asked two questions with rote answers. Anyone who doesn't give the answers to these questions don't get baptized.

Correct me if I am wrong, but there are magic words that need to be said to be baptized.

I witnessed a baptism yesterday. The candidates were asked 2 questions relating to whether they were willing to make their dedication. The questions were a formality, of course; they would not have presented themselves had they not been willing. I suppose, if one suddenly had regrets, he or she could just decline to be baptized.

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@neologist,

Everyone is asked the same two questions. Everyone gives the same two responses. Everyone is then immersed completely in water.

Formality is just another word for ritual.

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@maxdancona,

Word.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

And for the record, I have nothing against Jehovah's witnesses (at least not any more than I have with any religion).

What I am objecting to is the prideful boast that Jehovah's Witnesses aren't just another religion. There is nothing that Jehovah's Witnesses believe that is unique and there is nothing in the Jehovah's Witness experience that isn't experienced in other faiths.

I know of no other organization which so sedulously applies John 13:35 "By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.” Witnesses in Rwanda risked death to save the lives of other tribespeople from a slaughter in which Time magazine reported. “Blood flowed down the aisles of churches where many sought refuge."

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Everyone is asked the same two questions. Everyone gives the same two responses. Everyone is then immersed completely in water.

Formality is just another word for ritual.

Point conceded as far as it goes.

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@neologist,

Do you allege that JW's are the only virtuous Christians in the world?

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

I have no doubt of that, nor have i any particular objection to the thought. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of your "anti-priest" rants.

Diderot's assertion served to accuse the world's religions and governments of complicity in thousands of years of bloodshed and oppression. I don't deny there have been other culprits.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

Do you allege that JW's are the only virtuous Christians in the world?

No. There are surely billions of virtuous people of all faiths. Something else is left to explain why members of some faiths were able to kill their fellow members in places such as Rwanda.

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Are we talking about freedom from something or freedomw for something?

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@neologist,

That's poor reasoning. The killings in Rwanda were motivated by tribal hatred, it had nothing to do with religion.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

That's poor reasoning. The killings in Rwanda were motivated by tribal hatred, it had nothing to do with religion.

Well, what explains why tribal hatred trumped religious affiliation?

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@neologist,

I don't object to that claim. In fact, when people go stomping around here blaming organized religion for wars, i have always pointed out that although religion my provide the casus belli, wars don't get going and are not sustained unless there is a political or an economic motive. I would list tribalism as a political motive.

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@neologist,

Quote:

I know of no other organization which so sedulously applies John 13:35 "By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”

Do you realize how incredibly asinine this is, boasting about how your religion was better than other religions during the Rwandan genocide?

Many faiths, including Menonites and Quakers are far more impressive in the area of loving their neighbors and peacemaking than Jehovah's witnesses, not to mention the Bahai faith (which doesn't fall under Christianity).

None of them boast about it.

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@Setanta,

I would tend to agree: politics/economics create flames fanned by religious leaders. But can anyone explain crusade, inquisition, jihad? The political/economic motivation seems obscure here. What do you think?

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@maxdancona,

I have great respect for the humanitarian efforts of other groups. The first responders in the recent Boston tragedy is a perfect example. The neutrality and heroism of Menonites, Quakers, Bahai followers, and others including non belivers is duly noted.

There were certainly other fine examples of humanity in Rwanda. The world is full of people of principle. But I know what I know about my fellow JWs. Almost all of their humanitarian work is behind the scenes because our door knocking "ritual" is our most important activity and our message is, we believe, the most important humanitarian effort we can provide.

So, I am sorry to have boasted in response to a question when, instead I should have boasted about Jehovah and how he will deliver mankind from war and crime and sickness and death.

2 Replies

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