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Sen. Graham Hints Constitution Outdated

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 02:54 am
I'm happy he was alive when captured...and I hope we get some useful information from him. I suspect the information he gives will not be especially helpful...that the radicalization of the older brother was the result of understandable hatred generated by understandable reactions to some of the stuff America has done in the world.

Lots of medical expenses are being incurred to keep him alive...most likely so that lots more money can be spent to keep him in prison for the rest of his life.

But in order for the system to work...it has to be applied to everyone. Read him his rights...and if he asks for a lawyer, furnish him one. Most likely the first thing the lawyer will advise is "Say absolutely nothing." And probably that is what the young man will do. for now. But I suspect at some point the lawyer will suggest that "cooperating" will help save his life (the federal charge will involve a possible death penalty)...and the information will be obtained.

Our system can be frustrating, but it is our system.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 03:03 am
This is bullshit, it's grandstanding. It is not an accident or a coincidence that the constitution provides for its own amendment. If this clown really thinks there's a problem, then all he needs to do is to get two thirds of both houses to go along with him, and then three quarters of the states to ratify any proposed amendment. All this is is phony outrage to get his mug on Fox News.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 03:15 am
@Lustig Andrei,
I agree. I often don't bother to reply with a simple agreement or disagreement, but Ceili's example is just perfect.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 03:16 am
@Lustig Andrei,
All of this is counterproductive, as is the silly 'war on terror' nonsense. He's not an 'enemy combatant,' he's a criminal, and he should be treated like a criminal. The war on terror elevates criminals to the status of soldiers and gives Al Qaida the respectability of a pseudo state.

Any talk of not observing due process just proves that the terrorists were right, that America is only interested in the rule of law when it serves its own purposes. Guantanamo Bay is a great recruiting sergeant for Al Qaida, especially when about sixty odd detainees are considered safe to be released, they just cant find somewhere to take them. You don't want Dzhokhar Tsarnaev to end up there in some legal limbo because he can't get a trial, or even worse to be released on a technicality because he has a smart lawyer.
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 07:09 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
All of this is counterproductive, as is the silly 'war on terror' nonsense. He's not an 'enemy combatant,' he's a criminal, and he should be treated like a criminal. The war on terror elevates criminals to the status of soldiers and gives Al Qaida the respectability of a pseudo state.


What would that make all the British and American, French too, mercenaries who used to traipse off to kill for money, no thought given to right or wrong, just a chance to kill for cash?

What do you think the difference is between the Tsarnaev brothers and the men, and possibly, women, who fly the US drones, Izzy?

According to Sen Graham these drone fliers have killed some 4700 people.

izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 09:14 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
What do you think the difference is between the Tsarnaev brothers and the men, and possibly, women, who fly the US drones, Izzy?


I've already made my opposition to drone strikes clear. Do you really think that by going on about America's crimes straight after a terrorist incident you're going to change attitudes? All you're doing is getting people's backs up and ending up being ignored by more and more people.

You seriously need to rethink you're tactics because you're doing more harm than good, and that's from someone who sympathises with a lot of what you have to say.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 09:26 am
@izzythepush,
You didn't answer my question, Izzy. It's an important question. No one has addressed it because no one is willing to be that honest.

Quote:
Do you really think that by going on about America's crimes straight after a terrorist incident you're going to change attitudes?


America's terrorist actions around the world are the sole reason for this terrorist action. Do you think these young men just woke up one morning and said, "We hate the US so let's bomb the Boston Marathon"?[/quote]

One has to address ignorance at its source.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 09:58 am
@JTT,
What do you want to do, do you want to change people's attitudes or just upset them?

I received a pm from a relatively new member asking about you. They are of the opinion that you're just a troll who likes to insult people and is seriously thinking of putting you on ignore. I pointed out how most of what you say is backed up with evidence from reputable sources, and you're concerned with making the world a better place.

I really can't be sure that I was believed. You're not really addressing ignorance at its source, you're in danger of shouting in an empty room. The only person who really engages with you is Advocate and that's because the worse America looks the far easier it is to excuse/ignore what Israel does.

Is that what you really want, to be used to justify the oppression of Palestine?

What you're doing, unless you just want to upset and insult people, is clearly not working. You're just getting people's backs up and hardening attitudes. When a new member thinks the wisest choice is to put you on ignore, because they think all you want to do is insult, then your case is lost.

You're not winning over hearts and minds, at best you're shouting in an empty room, and at worst you're being used to justify Zionist oppression.

Your beliefs are noble, but your tactics stink.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 10:10 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
I received a pm from a relatively new member asking about you. They are of the opinion that you're just a troll who likes to insult people and is seriously thinking of putting you on ignore. I pointed out how most of what you say is backed up with evidence from reputable sources, and you're concerned with making the world a better place.



"There is nothing more antithetical to the hopes for a university that is lively and yet civil...than to permanently seal off debate with one's opponents by killing them". Christopher G. Kennedy


Quote:
I really can't be sure that I was believed. You're not really addressing ignorance at its source, you're in danger of shouting in an empty room. The only person who really engages with you is Advocate and that's because the worse America looks the far easier it is to excuse/ignore what Israel does.

Is that what you really want, to be used to justify the oppression of Palestine?


Come off it, Izzy. The Israelis are pikers. Stop giving the real terrorists, the world leaders in war crimes and terrorism a free pass.

Now, why won't you, or anyone address my question? Is it that the distinction between the Boston brothers and the drone flyers is really not all that huge?

You take on tough issue when it comes to Israel. What fails you when it comes to the US?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 11:24 am
@JTT,
I know you think you're right, but you're dead wrong. It's very easy to blame everyone else for the reason you're on ignore. Let's say it is their fault, have your actions made them more likely to think America should practice a more ethical policy overseas, or have you had the resverse effect?

If you want to persuade people, and not just piss them off, you need to engage on a more positive level. We know absolutely nothing about you other than your views on grammar and your opposition to America's foreign policy. This for you has the same status as a religion, and like a proselytising evangelist you try to inform/convert people at every turn, regardless of the thread topic. If people want to engage in small talk, share recipes and discuss their pets you should let them do it in peace. You don't, you just insult everyone and talk about whatever is pissing you off about America right at that point.

If, you actually told people a little more about yourself, what your favourite recipe is, or whether or not you have a pet, something that everyone else does, you might actually connect with someone. You won't even divulge your gender or nationality, all of which which would make you make you seem more like a human being, and less two dimensional. As it is, people just think you're anti American, you don't like the American people, and it doesn't really matter what they do because you'll hate them anyway. That's what people think, and more importantly that's what people who are new to the forum think.

Your tactics let America off the hook, you let people think that the only critics of America are people who hate America. They may even allow themselves to think that it's because you hate their freedoms. You're just reinforcing prejudices.


Btw, if you want to talk about the difference between the bombers and drone flyers start a thread on it and I will comment. Not here though, this is about something else.

JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 05:05 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Let's say it is their fault, have your actions made them more likely to think America should practice a more ethical policy overseas, or have you had the reverse effect?


You've got a zero and I've got a plus 2. Sort that one out, Izzy.

You miss the crucial portion. It's not me that's saying this. It comes right from US government sources, from US government documents, from honest Americans who have had it with the crimes and the hypocrisy.

And it sure as hell is not simply an unethical policy overseas. When a spade is a spade, why not call it a spade? The US is the worst terrorist nation on the planet. It has constantly and relentlessly committed war crimes for well over a century.

It has constantly and relentlessly done this to, like the UK, steal the wealth from others. It has just done it in a much much more brutal fashion, I believe, than the UK. Perhaps that's only due to the availability of more destructive weaponry.

I don't feel like treating adults like children. Tell me one good reason that these folks who cover for terrorists and war criminals should be given a pass.

Quote:
If you want to persuade people, and not just piss them off, you need to engage on a more positive level.


You mean like you do with Advocate, Bill, Oralloy, Setanta, ... ? I can see that Advocate is ready to zip over to the UK to party large with you.

Quote:
As it is, people just think you're anti American, you don't like the American people, and it doesn't really matter what they do because you'll hate them anyway. That's what people think, and more importantly that's what people who are new to the forum think.


That's a great cop out. I'm pretty sure that I've heard that nonsense before. If they were adults, they would stop with the nonsensical excuses and they would address the source material. As Noam Chomsky says,

Anti-Americanism is a pure totalitarian concept. The very notion is idiotic.
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 05:36 pm
@JTT,


WEDNESDAY, SEP 26, 2001 7:40 PM UTC
The sick mind of Noam Chomsky
"The most important intellectual alive" is a pathological ayatollah of anti-American hate -- and the leader of the treacherous fifth-column Left.
BY DAVID HOROWITZ

...

http://www.salon.com/2001/09/26/treason_2/
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 05:53 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Btw, if you want to talk about the difference between the bombers and drone flyers start a thread on it and I will comment. Not here though, this is about something else.



Who are the terrorists?

http://able2know.org/topic/213050-1
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 06:10 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Based on the title of this thread I expected a clumsy distortion of something Graham actually said, but you haven't risen to even this low level of substantiation.

And Graham's opinions are fascist? You're channeling one of you favorite
villains, McCarthy.
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 08:22 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Quote:
But Graham thinks our normal laws should be waived. Why? Because we might get some useful information that way.


Graham's hardly the only one. You think this too, Merry. Most Americans do, too. Americans let Bush and the other war criminals do this and much worse. Isn't it a little silly for you to go prancing around pretending you are some great protector of the rule of law when you make excuses for war criminals and terrorists all the time.

0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 08:33 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
An honest American, Ross Caputi.

This can also be found at,

http://able2know.org/topic/212979-1#post-5309999

a thread that honors the outstanding American, Ross Caputi.

============================

I am sorry for the role I played in Fallujah

As a US marine who lost close friends in the siege of Fallujah in Iraq seven years ago, I understand that we were the aggressors

Ross Caputi
guardian.co.uk, Thursday 22 December 2011 10.00 GMT


It has been seven years since the end of the second siege of Fallujah – the US assault that left the city in ruins, killed thousands of civilians, and displaced hundreds of thousands more; the assault that poisoned a generation, plaguing the people who live there with cancers and their children with birth defects.

It has been seven years and the lies that justified the assault still perpetuate false beliefs about what we did.

The US veterans who fought there still do not understand who they fought against, or what they were fighting for.

I know, because I am one of those American veterans. In the eyes of many of the people I "served" with, the people of Fallujah remain dehumanised and their resistance fighters are still believed to be terrorists. But unlike most of my counterparts, I understand that I was the aggressor, and that the resistance fighters in Fallujah were defending their city.

It is also the seventh anniversary of the deaths of two close friends of mine, Travis Desiato and Bradley Faircloth, who were killed in the siege. Their deaths were not heroic or glorious. Their deaths were tragic, but not unjust.

How can I begrudge the resistance in Fallujah for killing my friends, when I know that I would have done the same thing if I were in their place? How can I blame them when we were the aggressors?

It could have been me instead of Travis or Brad. I carried a radio on my back that dropped the bombs that killed civilians and reduced Fallujah to rubble. If I were a Fallujan, I would have killed anyone like me. I would have had no choice. The fate of my city and my family would have depended on it. I would have killed the foreign invaders.

Travis and Brad are both victims and perpetrators. They were killed and they killed others because of a political agenda in which they were just pawns. They were the iron fist of American empire, and an expendable loss in the eyes of their leaders.

I do not see any contradiction in feeling sympathy for the dead US Marines and soldiers and at the same time feeling sympathy for the Fallujans who fell to their guns. The contradiction lies in believing that we were liberators, when in fact we oppressed the freedoms and wishes of Fallujans. The contradiction lies in believing that we were heroes, when the definition of "hero" bares no relation to our actions in Fallujah.

What we did to Fallujah cannot be undone, and I see no point in attacking the people in my former unit. What I want to attack are the lies and false beliefs. I want to destroy the prejudices that prevented us from putting ourselves in the other's shoes and asking ourselves what we would have done if a foreign army invaded our country and laid siege to our city.

I understand the psychology that causes the aggressors to blame their victims. I understand the justifications and defence mechanisms. I understand the emotional urge to want to hate the people who killed someone dear to you. But to describe the psychology that preserves such false beliefs is not to ignore the objective moral truth that no attacker can ever justly blame their victims for defending themselves.

The same distorted morality has been used to justify attacks against the native Americans, the Vietnamese, El Salvadorans, and the Afghans. It is the same story over and over again. These people have been dehumanised, their God-given right to self-defence has been delegitimised, their resistance has been reframed as terrorism, and US soldiers have been sent to kill them.

History has preserved these lies, normalised them, and socialised them into our culture: so much so that legitimate resistance against US aggression is incomprehensible to most, and to even raise this question is seen as un-American.

History has defined the US veteran as a hero, and in doing so it has automatically defined anyone who fights against him as the bad guy. It has reversed the roles of aggressor and defender, moralised the immoral, and shaped our societies' present understanding of war.

I cannot imagine a more necessary step towards justice than to put an end to these lies, and achieve some moral clarity on this issue. I see no issue more important than to clearly understand the difference between aggression and self-defence, and to support legitimate struggles. I cannot hate, blame, begrudge, or resent Fallujans for fighting back against us. I am sincerely sorry for the role I played in the second siege of Fallujah, and I hope that some day not just Fallujans but all Iraqis will win their struggle.

• This piece originally ran on stopwar.org.uk

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/dec/22/fallujah-us-marine-iraq
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 08:46 pm
@RABEL222,
Rabel222 has it spot on! There's enough shenanigans going on with our Constitution without another tear at it from some crazy congress member.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 08:58 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
There's enough shenanigans going on with our Constitution without another tear at it from some crazy congress member.


But you guys are letting it happen, CI. Bush, Cheney and the gang shredded it and you guys just let them walk. War crimes, felonies, torture, ... and you guys give them a free pass.

Remember how Watergate was to supposed to have shown just how well the US constitution worked. What a laugh!!! It went on with Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush and now Obama.

And the laugh is on all you little suckers. They keep taking YOUR money to make themselves billions by killing people. And you guys just lube up and bend over again and again.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 09:23 pm
@JTT,
"We" let them walk? It's up to congress and the SC to take action if there were unconstitutional actions by any other branch of the government; not the private citizens.

You claim you're an American?
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 09:55 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
"We" let them walk? It's up to congress and the SC to take action if there were unconstitutional actions by any other branch of the government; not the private citizens.


"government of the people, by the people, for the people ..."
 

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