1
   

Aussies, Hide Your Steak Knives

 
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 08:14 pm
I think "nothing is proven" is the entire point, Set.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 08:18 pm
Adrian wrote:
Quote:
he didn't actually care what factual data or arguments any one could bring to him, he had his opinion and it was proof against any new information.


What "factual data" are you talking about?

I was unaware that the premise "Guns 'R' Good!" had been proven.


You need to speak to Scrat, Timber, about what is or is not proven. It was the one who commenced a discussion of what is "factual." Hence, my reference to this post by Adrian.
0 Replies
 
Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 10:53 pm
I've had some fairly good results in firearms discussions by emphasizing the use of guns in self defense. The discussion goes something like this:

Let's imagine a drug-crazed gang of young adults (say, three of them) decides they want to come into your house and do anything they want. They might want to rob you, they might want to rape your wife, or they might want to carry off your children. It is your responsibility as the head of the family to protect your loved ones. You can assume they are carrying weapons of some kind. Let's make it simple and say they couldn't get their hands on any guns (although this is increasingly unlikely with the amount of weapons smuggling that's going on). So they have metal bars, or sharp knives, or maybe even the infamous (Monty Python) "Point-Ed Sticks." What will you use to defend your loved ones? Unless you're a complete pacifist who is willing to throw yourself on one of their knives to allow your family time to escape, you will want to own a weapon to fight back against them.

As the head of the household and the protector of my family, I need to be able to fight back against a home invasion with enough force to ensure that my family survives. I can't depend on the police to protect me because it will take them a few minutes to get to my house (assuming I'm able to make a phone call). By the time they get here, all they can do is take pictures of the blood splatters and throw sheets over the dead bodies. My windows and doors aren't strong enough to keep anyone out for very long, maybe just long enough for me to arm myself. THEN I can have the time to pick up the phone and call the police.

Remember what happened in Rwanda? The people there were slaughtered, probably in the millions, by sticks and rocks and machetes. If the citizens had been allowed to own firearms, the results may have been much different. It is a terrible thing to me to hear about a country where an attacker can defeat a homeowner by wielding whatever weapon he's able to pick up off the ground. A person's life should never be sold as cheaply as that. And yet, three people, each carrying a brick, can probably take over the average gun-free European home with great ease.

Maybe I'm all wrong here. Maybe in Europe, or everywhere outside the United States, there is never any crime, no one ever uses drugs, everyone acts politely toward everyone else, and no one would ever think about entering your home without first writing you a respectful letter of introduction. But then I remember the news stories about the racial violence in England and Germany, and it makes me wonder - how can you guys get a good night's sleep when you know that anyone can come in off the street and bash your head in with a rock and you won't be able to do a thing about it?

Just curious... Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Adrian
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 11:38 pm
Quote:
Let's imagine a drug-crazed gang of young adults (say, three of them) decides they want to come into your house and do anything they want. They might want to rob you, they might want to rape your wife, or they might want to carry off your children.


Given that the chances of this happening are VERY slim, it doesn't make me feel like I need to own a gun.

Quote:
What will you use to defend your loved ones? Unless you're a complete pacifist who is willing to throw yourself on one of their knives to allow your family time to escape, you will want to own a weapon to fight back against them.


There are plenty of weapons I could use. My brain would be the one I would rely on the most.

Quote:
Remember what happened in Rwanda? The people there were slaughtered, probably in the millions, by sticks and rocks and machetes. If the citizens had been allowed to own firearms, the results may have been much different.


Indeed. People would have been "slaughtered, probably in the millions," by firearms. I can see how this is "much different". Rolling Eyes

Quote:
It is a terrible thing to me to hear about a country where an attacker can defeat a homeowner by wielding whatever weapon he's able to pick up off the ground.


Are you saying that this is not possible in the USA?

Quote:
how can you guys get a good night's sleep when you know that anyone can come in off the street and bash your head in with a rock and you won't be able to do a thing about it?


What are you talking about? Are you saying because you have a gun that it can't happen to you? Are you saying that because everyone has guns they would shoot you instead of bashing you in the head with a rock? Given that I am asleep in this little fantasy what am I supposed to be able to do about it?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 11:52 pm
Adrian


I suppose, outsite the US, wild-west is only a synonym for films, not for something in real life.

But might well be that we should develop towards these futuristic idea and ideals as well. :wink:
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 12:38 am
Scrat wrote:
msolga wrote:
I think we'll just agree to disagree, yes? You'll never change my mind...

I had a friend make this statement to me about the gun issue a while back, and I couldn't help but wonder whether he really realized what he was saying... that he didn't actually care what factual data or arguments any one could bring to him, he had his opinion and it was proof against any new information.


I can never accept the prevalence of guns in any civilized community. There is no need for them & they cause terrible harm in those communities. Sorry, but that's final. There really is no point in discussing it.
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 12:43 am
We barely have a hundred gun deaths a year in Oz. In the US there's roughly 30 000. No thankyou.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 02:02 am
Lol! With far fewer murders and especially gun murders per capita, I dinna give a tuppenny smeg what you gun-totin' Americans say.

When you prove your gun madness has nothing to do with your extremely unsafe society, I will reconsider.

Until then I, and the overwhelming majority of Australians, say we are very happy with our current gun laws - feel free to lecture to us when your per capita gun deaths are less than ours. Until then, we are not interested.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 02:03 am
Wilso - the only reasonable comparison is per capita - absolute figures are only relevant when populations are taken into account.

We still win.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 02:05 am
It is especially funny when some of you keep repeating that Australians cannot own guns.

We cannot own guns suited to mass slaughter - and ownership of easily concealed weapons is limited - but please, don't let facts stand in the way of rants.
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 04:21 am
Yeah, I know a couple of guys at work who own guns. They go shooting every year. I've gone shooting once. Had a good time for a week, but I wouldn't do it again.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 07:12 am
dlowan wrote:
Lol! With far fewer murders and especially gun murders per capita, I dinna give a tuppenny smeg what you gun-totin' Americans say.

When you prove your gun madness has nothing to do with your extremely unsafe society, I will reconsider.

Until then I, and the overwhelming majority of Australians, say we are very happy with our current gun laws - feel free to lecture to us when your per capita gun deaths are less than ours. Until then, we are not interested.


<nodding head in agreement>
0 Replies
 
Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 09:29 am
Adrian wrote:
Quote:
Let's imagine a drug-crazed gang of young adults (say, three of them) decides they want to come into your house and do anything they want. They might want to rob you, they might want to rape your wife, or they might want to carry off your children.

Given that the chances of this happening are VERY slim, it doesn't make me feel like I need to own a gun.

Chances of having an auto accident are also very slim. Does that keep you from using your seat belt?

Adrian wrote:
Quote:
What will you use to defend your loved ones? Unless you're a complete pacifist who is willing to throw yourself on one of their knives to allow your family time to escape, you will want to own a weapon to fight back against them.

There are plenty of weapons I could use. My brain would be the one I would rely on the most.

If you have a bulletproof brain that would make sense. But it is a poor defensive weapon against a knife or even a brick.

Adrian wrote:
Quote:
Remember what happened in Rwanda? The people there were slaughtered, probably in the millions, by sticks and rocks and machetes. If the citizens had been allowed to own firearms, the results may have been much different.

Indeed. People would have been "slaughtered, probably in the millions," by firearms. I can see how this is "much different". Rolling Eyes

The point is that the victims would have been able to defend themselves, thus avoiding the high death toll. As it was, they had to wait for help from the United Nations, and of course that help never arrived.

Adrian wrote:
Quote:
It is a terrible thing to me to hear about a country where an attacker can defeat a homeowner by wielding whatever weapon he's able to pick up off the ground.

Are you saying that this is not possible in the USA?

There are cities where guns are banned where this is indeed possible. But since in most places we citizens have the right to own firearms, in most places an attacker with a brick or even a sword could be easily defeated. In many cases even a gun-wielding attacker can be defeated if citizens have the right to carry concealed weapons.

Adrian wrote:
Quote:
how can you guys get a good night's sleep when you know that anyone can come in off the street and bash your head in with a rock and you won't be able to do a thing about it?

What are you talking about? Are you saying because you have a gun that it can't happen to you? Are you saying that because everyone has guns they would shoot you instead of bashing you in the head with a rock? Given that I am asleep in this little fantasy what am I supposed to be able to do about it?

It's only a fantasy until you hear your front door being kicked in and your children screaming as they are dragged from their beds. There are many such stories that actually happen, but aren't reported in the press.

It's true that our cultures are different. It's hard to say whether the crime rate is affected by the presence or absence of guns. For example:

Quote:
Australia: Readers of the USA Today newspaper discovered in 2002 that, "Since Australia's 1996 laws banning most guns and making it a crime to use a gun defensively, armed robberies rose by 51%, unarmed robberies by 37%, assaults by 24% and kidnappings by 43%. While murders fell by 3%, manslaughter rose by 16%."

Can we blame the rise in crime on the changed gun laws, or were there other factors at work? That's for someone else to analyze. I'm not even sure the numbers are true. But it does seem that something is going on there, doesn't it?
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 09:45 am
Tarantulas wrote:


It's true that our cultures are different. It's hard to say whether the crime rate is affected by the presence or absence of guns. For example:

Quote:
Australia: Readers of the USA Today newspaper discovered in 2002 that, "Since Australia's 1996 laws banning most guns and making it a crime to use a gun defensively, armed robberies rose by 51%, unarmed robberies by 37%, assaults by 24% and kidnappings by 43%. While murders fell by 3%, manslaughter rose by 16%."



And even if those statistics got 2000% worse, we'd still be about 5000% better than the US!
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 10:01 am
Usually, i would find it ludicrous for Oztralians to comment on the gun situation in the United States. Guns do not play any significant part in most of our daily lives, and we don't walk down the street like gunslingers, armed to the teeth.

However, the proximate interest of Ozzies in this particular thread is, or ought to be, obvious. For our antipodean cousins, i'd like to point out some things about the American gun culture. Those who support the gun lobby claim they have a right to own firearms. This is true, but disingenuous. The second amendment reads, in its entirety:

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

I make the point about quoting the amendment in its entirety, because the gun lobby likes to ignore the first clause, and especially the phrase "well regulated." In the context of the history of American jurisprudence, appellate courts and the Supremes have recognize that this refers to Article I, Section 8 of the constitution, which enumerates the powers of Congress, and reads, in part:

Congress shall have the power . . . To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

Therefore, the Congress is perfectly within its constitutional mandate to ban handguns and assault rifles, if it so chooses. It is undeniable that these types of weapons have the sole purpose of killing people. Statistics, being the leading cause of cancer, are a poor answer to the cunundrums of gun control. They ignore population increases, as well as economic and social factors which may effect crime rates. Statistics are notoriously unreliable because of the fluidity of interpretation, and the ever present possibility of manipulation through ommission or the failure of complete qualification. Gun lobby supporters also ignore the prevalence of illegal firearms which result form the irresponsible sale of fire arms in an unregulated manner by gun owners themselves.

To my Ozzian friends--you will always meet conservative supporters of unrestricted gun ownership at American sites who will offer scads of bogus statistics and the claim that these "statistics" support a contention that crime increases when the general population loses the right to own the biggest damned piece of artillery they can afford. Ignore them, i do.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 11:45 am
Setanta wrote:
The second amendment reads, in its entirety:

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

I make the point about quoting the amendment in its entirety, because the gun lobby likes to ignore the first clause, and especially the phrase "well regulated." In the context of the history of American jurisprudence, appellate courts and the Supremes have recognize that this refers to Article I, Section 8 of the constitution, which enumerates the powers of Congress, and reads, in part:

Congress shall have the power . . . To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

I understand your point, but wonder--if you are correct in your interpretation--why anyone thought it necessary to amend the Constitution to provide for a right you claim the Constitution already covered.

I can accept your assertion that the right of the people to keep and bear arms is necessitated by the requirements of Article I, section 8, but you seem to read the 2nd amendment as simply amplifying that section of the Constitution. But doesn't it do more than that? In recognizing that the people needed the right to have guns (because the government might need those people to have guns) the government gave THE PEOPLE that right by way of the Second Amendment. The language of the second doesn't simply tell us that the people have the right to keep and bear arms at the pleasure of the government, but that they have this right without constraint--that it "shall not be infringed".

I am happy to agree with you that their intent in proffering this right to the people was to make sure those people had guns when the government needed them, BUT the fact remains that the language with which they bestowed that right upon THE PEOPLE does not appear to allow for the types of gun control legislation of which you wrote. The intent of the second amendment appears to be to ensure that the government doesn't shoot itself in the foot (no joke intended) by denying people the right to own guns the government might later need them to own.

<enter musing mode>

Of course, this whole debate could be solved by putting forth a new amendment to clarify the point. Hell, I think it would be great to have several competing amendments sent up and see if any one passed.

- One would espouse an absolute, unassailable right to keep and bear arms of any type and in any quantity.

- One would ban private ownership of guns.

- One would clearly delineate the terms under which citizens may own guns and what types and quantities of guns citizens may own.

My suspicion is that if any of these could pass, it would be the third.

Better than that would be a new amendment clearly binding the federal government's hands from legislating gun ownership in any way, and noting the right of states to do so at their pleasure.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 11:53 am
Scrat wrote:
I understand your point, but wonder--if you are correct in your interpretation--why anyone thought it necessary to amend the Constitution to provide for a right you claim the Constitution already covered.


There is no such interpretation on my part. I did not, in fact, express an opinion on the subject of why the second amendment was proposed. Had i done so, i would have pointed to a centuries old tradition in Europe, especially noticeable in England, or restricting membership in militias to citizens of a certain, demonstrable prosperity. I would also have pointed to the common practice for millenia of disarming the peasantry on the part of authoritarian regimes, the most recent example of which i can recall being that of Oda Nobunaga in the late 16th century in Japan. As is usual, you attempt to argue or discuss what i've written, not from a departure point of what i have actually written, but, rather your interpretation or interpolation of what i've written. The point i made was quite clearly stated, but i'll state if for you again, as it didn't seem to sink in. I was only saying that the first clause of the second amendment has been construed by the federal judiciary as being referential to Article I, Section 8. Period.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 12:08 pm
Perhaps you could respond to the rest of my comments, rather than focusing on one line that you believe gives you an "out". Specifically, my core point was that the issue today isn't why they granted the right but how. They did so using language that bar them from infringing that right. How then is it that they find the power to do so?
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 12:21 pm
On the lighter side...
(oops, wrong discussion!)
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2004 12:25 pm
Laughing Laughing Still wiping the tears...
0 Replies
 
 

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