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Grammar question - I think it relates to plural or singular

 
 
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 01:29 pm
Hi All: I was hoping that somebody could answer a question I have. I think it relates to whether something is singular or plural, but I don't know for sure.
Here is a paragraph that I wrote. Is my writing correct when, in the second sentence, I use "Lifer" and "he or she", and in the third sentence "their" and "they".

The mandatory sentence for first and second degree murder in Canada is Life, with a varying number of years that must be served before a person is eligible for parole; usually between 10 and 25 years. So after a Lifer has served their minimum term of imprisonment, he or she can apply for release on parole. If their application is successful, they will be permitted to serve the remainder of their life sentence in the community.

I've been struggling with this for a long time. I wanted to write this instead:

...... So after "Lifers" have served their minimum sentences, they can apply for release on parole, and if successful, will be permitted to serve the remainder of their life sentences in the community.

However, I'm not sure whether I should be speaking about all Lifers or just an individual Lifer. The second paragraph where I use "Lifers" sounds better to me, but for some reason it seems wrong to be.

I would be very appreciative if someone could help me with this. If there is a name for the problem I am having (is it a tense problem or?) I would like to know it so that I can practice. I would also be happy if someone could help me understand any rules so that I can identify problems in the future.

Thank you very much.

Ron




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Type: Question • Score: 3 • Views: 899 • Replies: 8
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DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 01:42 pm
@rondogger22,
THEY/THEIR (SINGULAR)

Quote:
Using the plural pronoun to refer to a single person of unspecified gender is an old and honorable pattern in English, not a newfangled bit of degeneracy or a politically correct plot to avoid sexism (though it often serves the latter purpose). People who insist that “Everyone has brought his own lunch” is the only correct form do not reflect the usage of centuries of fine writers. A good general rule is that only when the singular noun does not specify an individual can it be replaced plausibly with a plural pronoun: “Everybody” is a good example. We know that “everybody” is singular because we say “everybody is here,“ not “everybody are here” yet we tend to think of “everybody” as a group of individuals, so we usually say “everybody brought their own grievances to the bargaining table.” “Anybody” is treated similarly.


However, in many written sentences the use of singular “their” and “they” creates an irritating clash even when it passes unnoticed in speech. It is wise to shun this popular pattern in formal writing. Often expressions can be pluralized to make the “they” or “their” indisputably proper: “All of them have brought their own lunches.” “People” can often be substituted for “each.” Americans seldom avail themselves of the otherwise very handy British “one” to avoid specifying gender because it sounds to our ears rather pretentious: “One’s hound should retrieve only one’s own grouse.” If you decide to try “one,” don’t switch to “they” in mid-sentence: “One has to be careful about how they speak” sounds absurd because the word “one” so emphatically calls attention to its singleness. The British also quite sensibly treat collective bodies like governmental units and corporations as plural (“Parliament have approved their agenda”) whereas Americans insist on treating them as singular.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 01:43 pm
@DrewDad,
In particular with "their," I don't see anything wrong with how you used it.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 01:45 pm
@rondogger22,
The use of their and they is an acceptable alternative to writing "he or she" and "his or her" each time. However, neither life nor lifer should be capitalized. The first word of a sentence, the first word of book title and any nouns in the title, and proper nouns are capitalized. Otherwise, nouns are not capitalized in English.

"Tom (proper noun) has a cat, it's an old tomcat (common noun)."

"Lucy is reading The Lord of the Rings."
0 Replies
 
rondogger22
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 01:54 pm
@DrewDad,
Thanks for that DrewDad, but did you answer my question somewhere in there? I was hoping that someone would clearly specify the issue I was having and offer a rule or guide that I could use. Thanks.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 02:02 pm
@rondogger22,
Quote:
I've been struggling with this for a long time. I wanted to write this instead:

...... So after "Lifers" have served their minimum sentences, they can apply for release on parole, and if successful, will be permitted to serve the remainder of their life sentences in the community.

However, I'm not sure whether I should be speaking about all Lifers or just an individual Lifer. The second paragraph where I use "Lifers" sounds better to me, but for some reason it seems wrong to be.


In essence, talking about all lifers or one lifer is the same thing, Ron. In situations like this you choose one as an example for the many. When you say 'a lifer', everyone knows that this means the same holds true for every other lifer in the circumstances being described.

Or you can talk about the same thing using the many, a plural, 'lifers'. Really it's your choice and there is nothing wrong with either.

Quote:
Hi All: I was hoping that somebody could answer a question I have. I think it relates to whether something is singular or plural, but I don't know for sure.

Here is a paragraph that I wrote. Is my writing correct when, in the second sentence, I use "Lifer" and "he or she", and in the third sentence "their" and "they".


Both forms are correct, Ron. There has been a long standing prescription [errant rule] against using 'their/they/them' with a singular antecedent - a person/a lifer/everyone/no one/... .

The prescription is, like all prescriptions, false, when it comes to how English actually works.

It doesn't have to do with singular and plural, though that's what the folks who try to defend this prescription would have you believe.

If you would like some sources that describe how natural your examples are to English, I can certainly provide some for you.

Quote:
The mandatory sentence for first and second degree murder in Canada is Life, with a varying number of years that must be served before a person is eligible for parole; usually between 10 and 25 years. So after a Lifer has served their minimum term of imprisonment, he or she can apply for release on parole. If their application is successful, they will be permitted to serve the remainder of their life sentence in the community.


Some would suggest that you keep to one form. Whether that is a useful stylistic preference, ... .

But, the following is absolutely fine. It's grammatical, it follows long standing traditions of English writing, many of the best writers in English have used it, in short it's what I said in the first sentence.

The mandatory sentence for first and second degree murder in Canada is Life, with a varying number of years that must be served before a person is eligible for parole; usually between 10 and 25 years. So after a Lifer has served their minimum term of imprisonment, they can apply for release on parole. If their application is successful, they will be permitted to serve the remainder of their life sentence in the community.

rondogger22
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 02:45 pm
@JTT,
JTT, Thanks very much for your response. Another issue that I'm having that I feel is related is with the following sentence:

"A shortcoming that the studies I just mentioned have in common is the absence of a comparison group of other ex-prisoners to which the exonerees can be compared."

In the first part of the sentence I say "studies." Does that mean in the second part of the same sentence that I have to say "comparison groups" instead of "a comparison group" like I have?

The studies I'm referring to should have each used a single comparison group. Can I still say "absence of comparison groups"?

Is this in fact related to the problem I'm having with "they" and "their" and "He and she"? What is it that's confusing me?

I appreciate your help.

Thanks.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 03:04 pm
@rondogger22,
rondogger22 wrote:

"A shortcoming that the studies I just mentioned have in common is the absence of a comparison group of other ex-prisoners to which the exonerees can be compared."


It's fine as written. The shortcoming is that there is not even one comparison group.
rondogger22
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Mar, 2013 08:08 pm
@roger,
Thanks Roger. Would "...the absence of a comparison groups..." also be correct with the exact same sentence?
0 Replies
 
 

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