Naysayers! Believers! Draw your swords!

@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

No, it's important to believers like you, who make an issue of it.

Quite right. Nominal christian believers pray daily to hallow God's name without realizing what they are saying.

1 Reply

@neologist,

Oy vey iz mir!
So evasive. Sad

If you don't want to talk scripture, don't claim scripture supports your opinions.

1 Reply

@MattDavis,

MattDavis wrote:

Oy vey iz mir!
So evasive.
If you don't want to talk scripture, don't claim scripture supports your opinions.

Checking your link sends me back to the post about the time of the Hebrew canon and the completion of Paul's writings.

I'm not sure what the difficulty is. The Hebrew canon was largely intact during the 5th century BCE. Paul's writings were complete around 66 CE. Regardless of the time differential, Paul certainly had all the Jewish texts at his disposal. And, having studied as a pharisee under Gamaliel, he was well versed in the law.

1 Reply

@neologist,

Translation: My religious superstition is superior to your religious superstition.

1 Reply

@neologist,

I'm not sure what link you are referring to?
I linked to two different Biblical translation and cross-referencing tools.
I also don't know what you are considering "Hebrew canon" in terms of being equivalent to the "Old Testament".
Do you confine your interpretations to the Tanakh?
Even if you do the Talmud alleges the extent of these works to be completed by fifth century BC, but not "canonized".
There is actually much dispute regarding when, even that section of what is in your Bible "Old Testament", became canonized.
This may be as late at 200 AD, well after the epistles of Paul.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
That however is all besides your point.
I thought you were claiming that scripture favored your theology.
I am willing to even drop all historical dating of texts and simply hear you out on the basis of Biblical infallibility.
Treat me as you would a Bible believing Christian and tell me how your beliefs are Biblical.

Let's hear your best "thumping". Wink

1 Reply

@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

Translation: My religious superstition is superior to your religious superstition.

Nyah nah nah nah nah

1 Reply

@MattDavis,

While I'm satisfied with the validity of my own study of scriptural authenticity, I'm willing to admit I may have missed something; you are welcome to show me.

For the most part, with the exception of concealing the divine name, any translation serves well.

As far as dating the 'Hebrew canon', can we agree there were no books written after the 5th century BCE? IMHO, the terms "Old Testament", and Tanakh are virtually synonymous. Paul had access to it all.

1 Reply

@neologist,

TaNaKh=Torah+Neviim Rishonim+Ketuvim
http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/tanakh.htm
I think we can be pretty sure that Paul had access to most of those, and probably many other non-canonical works, and also Greek philosophy.
I don't think we can be so sure he agreed with all of them... not sure that he does not "pick and choose" which texts he agrees with.
He obviously disagrees with much of (contemporary to his time) Jewish teachings.
On occasion Paul disagrees with himself, but then again... Don't we all, from time to time?

2 Replies

@MattDavis,

MattDavis wrote:

I think we can be pretty sure that Paul had access to most of those, and probably many other non-canonical works, and also Greek philosophy.
I don't think we can be so sure he agreed with all of them... not sure that he does not "pick and choose" which texts he agrees with.

Speaking only of the 38 books commonly called the Old Testament, they most certainly are included in Paul's phrase "all scripture"

MattDavis wrote:

He obviously disagrees with much of (contemporary to his time) Jewish teachings.

As did Jesus' excoriation of the scribes and pharisees. (See the 23rd chapter of Matthew)

MattDavis wrote:

On occasion Paul disagrees with himself, but then again... Don't we all, from time to time?

Where was that?

1 Reply

@MattDavis,

Quote:

On occasion Paul disagrees with himself, but then again... Don't we all, from time to time?

Excellent point. Most of us do indeed.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Thanks Frank. I won't thumb your post up our of respect for your wishes on such things.

1 Reply

@MattDavis,

Quote:

Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5287632)
Thanks Frank. I won't thumb your post up our of respect for your wishes on such things.

Thanks.

0 Replies

@neologist,

You're the engaged in the "nyah nyah" exercise here, Neo.

Neo . . . hehehehehehe . . . that cracks me up . . .

http://imgs.mi9.com/uploads/male-celebrities/1259/neo-in-matrix_1024x768_18457.jpg

1 Reply

@neologist,

MattDavis wrote:

I think we can be pretty sure that Paul had access to most of those, and probably many other non-canonical works, and also Greek philosophy.
I don't think we can be so sure he agreed with all of them... not sure that he does not "pick and choose" which texts he agrees with.

Neologist wrote:

Speaking only of the 38 books commonly called the Old Testament, they most certainly are included in Paul's phrase "all scripture"

You've kinda skirted the issue here a bit don't cha think?
Are you admitting Paul picked and chose his "scripture" or not?
If you think he agrees with "all scripture" in the sense of the entire Old Testament, then you are opening a whole 'nother can of can of worms.

MattDavis wrote:

He obviously disagrees with much of (contemporary to his time) Jewish teachings.

Neologist wrote:

As did Jesus' excoriation of the scribes and pharisees. (See the 23rd chapter of Matthew).

Seems like a non-sequiter. Paul and Jesus never even knew each other (at least not in the natural world). 1st Corinthians 2:2 contains some interesting insight into that. Jesus's teaching are actually not a subject of much interest (apparently) for Paul. Letter's attributed to Paul rarely mention things other than Paul's interpretation of the meaning of Jesus's death.
On the subject of pharisees, another question of mine you have yet to answer... Do you disagree with any of the teachings of the Watchtower Society?

MattDavis wrote:

On occasion Paul disagrees with himself, but then again... Don't we all, from time to time?

Neologist wrote:

Where was that?

I myself may now seem to be evasive, but I doubt we share the same opinion regarding the authorship of some portions of the Bible.
To be in keeping with your beliefs:
Which epistles do you think that Paul wrote.
Do you think the Book of Acts is accurate (with respect to Paul's life)?

1 Reply

@Setanta,

These are powers I do not possess nor do I claim to possess. Also I am far uglier.

1 Reply

@neologist,

Oh come on . . . we all know you're a super cool dude . . . Dude . . .

1 Reply

@MattDavis,

MattDavis wrote:

You've kinda skirted the issue here a bit don't cha think?
Are you admitting Paul picked and chose his "scripture" or not?
If you think he agrees with "all scripture" in the sense of the entire Old Testament, then you are opening a whole 'nother can of can of worms.

When I speak of scripture, I am customarily referring only to those writings which are included in the 66 books of the Bible.

MattDavis wrote:

He obviously disagrees with much of (contemporary to his time) Jewish teachings.

Neologist wrote:

As did Jesus' excoriation of the scribes and pharisees. (See the 23rd chapter of Matthew).

MattDavis wrote:

Seems like a non-sequiter. Paul and Jesus never even knew each other (at least not in the natural world). 1st Corinthians 2:2 contains some interesting insight into that. Jesus's teaching are actually not a subject of much interest (apparently) for Paul. Letter's attributed to Paul rarely mention things other than Paul's interpretation of the meaning of Jesus's death.

He certainly knew those who were with Jesus. And he had that conversation with Jesus on the road to Damascus.

MattDavis wrote:

On the subject of pharisees, another question of mine you have yet to answer... Do you disagree with any of the teachings of the Watchtower Society?

Owing to this many of his disciples went off to the things behind and would no longer walk with him. 67 Therefore Jesus said to the twelve: “YOU do not want to go also, do YOU?” 68 Simon Peter answered him: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life; 69 and we have believed and come to know that you are the Holy One of God.” (John6:66-69)

MattDavis wrote:

Which epistles do you think that Paul wrote.

All that are generally attributed to him

MattDavis wrote:

Do you think the Book of Acts is accurate (with respect to Paul's life)?

Yes

0 Replies

@Setanta,

Dual Dudes forever, Set. Two argumentative Schnooks.
Agreeing only on coffee.
As if there were anything else of importance

Naysayers! Believers! Draw your swords!

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know