1
   

Spain is just Spain

 
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 07:52 pm
I would suggest something very close to the "Geneva Accords". This is a plan design by Israelis and Palestinians not connected to the government.

It involved concessions by both sides, inluding a return to 1967 boundaries for Israel, and dropping the right of return for the Palestinians. This meets the basic needs of both sides. The 1967 boundaries dismantles the settlements and gives an economically and politically viable state to the Palestinians.

Dropping the demand of right of return ensures that Israel will survive as a predominantly Jewish state.

Incidently it is opposed by both leaderships who seem to have too much invested in violence to justify peace.

The reasons they say they oppose this plan are ridiculous as the US will ensure the military survival of Israel and it is clear that a thriving economy and something to lose will provide a very strong disincentive for terrorism.

Most of the anti-peace rhetoric is based on bigotry. But inevitably we will hear (maybe right here) that one side or the other doesn't want peace. But if you want peace, it is clear what concessions need to be made.

There is no excuse for supporting the inhumane actions of ether side.

Here is a link.

http://www.americantaskforce.org/geneva.htm

--------
"Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God. "
- Jesus of Nazereth
0 Replies
 
ConstantlyQuestioning
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 08:00 pm
Quote:
Incidently it is opposed by both leaderships who seem to have too much invested in violence to justify peace.


Sad isn't it.

Quote:
Most of the anti-peace rhetoric is based on bigotry.


Some, not all.

Quote:
There is no excuse for supporting the inhumane actions of ether side.


Don't be one sided now :wink:
Seriously. I know this wouldn't be your favorite option, but wouldn't a complete and decisive military victory by Israel save more lives in the long run than 20-30 more years of continuing the current status quo?
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 08:51 pm
CQ,

What does "complete and decisive military victory by Israel" entail?

Israel already has complete military control. Israel does what ever it wants, including killing who they want without anyone stopping them, confiscating land, building new settlements and bulldozing houses.

(I am not now arguing what is just, I am just pointing out that Israel already has won a complete and decisive miliatary victory and have near complete military control.)

Outside of expelling or killing all the Palestinians what more could they do?

I don't think ethnic cleansing or genocide are acceptable options, do you?

Or are you suggesting something else?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 04:28 am
Just checking in here to note that the Spaniards are still very happy with the Socialist government they elected and their new PM Zapatero.

In a new opinion poll, a little over a year after the elections, the socialist PSOE actually has an even larger lead on the conservative PP than it did back then; and the third party are the Greens/United Left coalition, which is politically to the left of Zapatero's PSOE.

Quote:
(Angus Reid Global Scan) - The governing Socialist Worker's Party (PSOE) remains the favourite political organization for Spaniards, according to a poll by Instituto Noxa published in La Vanguardia. 45.8 per cent of respondents would vote for the PSOE in the next general election, while 36.4 per cent would support the conservative Popular Party (PP).

[..] The coalition of United Left (IU) and Initiative for Catalonia-Greens (IC-V) is third with 5.6 per cent, followed by three regional parties: Catalonia's Convergence and Union (CiU) with three per cent, the Republican Left of Catalonia (ERC) with 1.6 per cent, and the Basque Nationalist Party (PNV) with 1.5 per cent.

The poll's results suggest the PSOE could secure anywhere from 172 to 176 seats in the 350-member Congress of Deputies. In the March 2004 election, the Socialists elected 164 lawmakers.

Polling Data

What party would you support in the next general election?

Vote% - Seats

Socialist Worker's Party (PSOE) 45.8% - 172-176

Popular Party (PP) 36.4% - 136-142

United Left (IU)/Initiative for Catalonia-Greens (IC-V) 5.6% - 7-8

Convergence and Union (CiU) 3.0% - 10

Republican Left of Catalonia (ERC) 1.6% - 5-6

Basque Nationalist Party (PNV) 1.5% - 6

Source: Instituto Noxa / La Vanguardia
Methodology: Telephone interviews to 1,000 Spanish adults, conducted from Jul. 4 to Jul. 7, 2005. Margin of error is 3.16 per cent.

LINK
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 10:14 am
Nimh, some analysts say that this surge of PSOE is more related to mistakes of the Populars than to good deed of the Socialists.
It is clear that the Populars lost Galicia -not that any other party won it.
The most recent division among the Populars has Catalonian Josep Piqué angry at the leadership's (Mariano Rajoy and the Aznar group) "lack of political sensibility" about: the autonomic desires of the Catalonian and Basque conservatives, the need to build alliances to keep local governments and the attitude of the majority of the population about gay marriage (for) and support of the war in Iraq (against).
Piqué insists that the Spanish electorate is looking for the center, not extremists, and fears the PP is moving towards the extreme right. His being outspoken is something new in a party that has so far been very disciplined.
0 Replies
 
thethinkfactory
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2005 05:56 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Is there any doubt that if the bombings did not happen, the original gov't would have won the election? All indicators I have seen say they would have...


Is there any doubt that if 9/11 would not have happened would would not have invaded Iraq?

TTF
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Mar, 2008 04:34 pm
Four years on, and Spanish voters do not look back in regret at the choice they made in 2004: in fact, they have just re-elected Prime Minister Zapatero's Socialist government:

Quote:
Victorious Spanish PM urges unity

Monday, 10 March 2008
BBC News

Summary:

Quote:
Prime Minister Zapatero has promised a new era in Spanish politics after winning another four year term in office. His Socialist Party (PSOE) gained five seats in the elections but is still short of an absolute majority, and will have to enter an informal coalition with Catalan nationalists. Both the PSOE and the oppositional conservatives increased their share of the vote, at the expense of small leftist and regional parties. Turnout was 75.3%, only just below the record 75.6% of 2004.

PSOE spokesmen called the result an endorsement of Zapatero's liberal reforms - including a gender-equality law, fast-track divorces and same-sex marriage that were fiercely opposed by the Catholic Church. The elections were marred by Friday's killing of a former socialist councillor in the Basque country.


For more information, see Walter's thread: Spanish elections
0 Replies
 
 

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