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The CBS 60 Minutes Richard Clarke Interview

 
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 06:47 pm
blatham wrote:

Hardly absurd, given sofia's first post...


I'll probably disagree with Sofia's position, but not on the basis of not having read the book.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 06:51 pm
sofia

Sorry, I thought you'd said you had read it, but I see you didn't say that.

But of course, you ought to. And you ought to read the book, as should anyone who wishes to make informed commentary.

I deeply despise the choreographed smear campaign on Clarke, and I'm not terribly fond of those who figure that listening to Frist or Cheney engaging in that smear represents 'good enough' participation as either debaters or as citizens.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 06:57 pm
Tarantulas wrote:
Is the 9/11 commission posting transcripts of testimony online? Or do some of the news organizations have selected transcripts on their websites?


Sofia wrote:


Here's all of the testimonies, on the Commission's website ...
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 06:59 pm
He said, they said:
At this point, without competing documents, I think people will believe who they prefer to believe.

From one of BBB's articles:
Hadley says that, contrary to Clarke's assertion, Mr. Bush didn't ignore the ominous intelligence chatter in the summer of 2001.

"All the chatter was of an attack, a potential al Qaeda attack overseas. But interestingly enough, the president got concerned about whether there was the possibility of an attack on the homeland. He asked the intelligence community: 'Look hard. See if we're missing something about a threat to the homeland.'

"And at that point various alerts went out from the Federal Aviation Administration to the FBI saying the intelligence suggests a threat overseas. We don't want to be caught unprepared. We don't want to rule out the possibility of a threat to the homeland. And therefore preparatory steps need to be made. So the president put us on battle stations."

Hadley asserts Clarke is "just wrong" in saying the administration didn't go to battle stations.

As for the alleged pressure from Mr. Bush to find an Iraq-9/11 link, Hadley says, "We cannot find evidence that this conversation between Mr. Clarke and the president ever occurred."
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 06:59 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
blatham wrote:

Hardly absurd, given sofia's first post...


I'll probably disagree with Sofia's position, but not on the basis of not having read the book.


OK...I'll grant you that I smell disconcertingly like a missionary re this book, as you've remarked earlier. But in being so, I'm witnessing for the value of INFORMATION in the book (and interview), and against the easy acceptance of the ad hominem smears repeated on this thread and which are assumed to represent thoughtful discussion.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 07:07 pm
Quote:
Hadley says that, contrary to Clarke's assertion, Mr. Bush didn't ignore the ominous intelligence chatter in the summer of 2001.

Take that claim. We'll note it is simply that, a claim. It is not backed by any information or evidence whatsoever.

In contrast, Clarke notes the two similar periods of high chatter, the first during the Clinton whitehouse and the second (referred to by Hadley) under the Bush administration, and then he goes on to lay out the specifics on how these two administrations differed.

I could spend the next hour typing out those differences (and they are profound) that Clarke experienced, but it would be rather more efficient of folks got themselves educated on this themselves.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 07:07 pm
Yes, let's get to the "he said, she said", since that's what we'll be hashing out all the way to this time next week:

Dr. Rice:

Quote:
"Richard Clarke had plenty of opportunities to tell us in the administration that he thought the war on terrorism was moving in the wrong direction and he chose not to."

03/22/04

On the 4th day of the Bush administration (January 24, 2001), Clarke sent a memo to Rice marked "urgent" asking for a Cabinet-level meeting to deal with an impending al Qaeda attack. No meeting occurred until one week before 9/11 -- eight months after the urgent request.

The administration does not dispute this fact but claims "principals did not need to have a formal meeting to discuss the threat."

The 9/11 panel asked Clarke whether an eight-month delay was unusual. Clarke explained, "t is unusual when you are being told every day there is an urgent threat."
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 07:10 pm
But blatham, the call to read the book is a form of ad hominem itself. If the lacking information is a result of not reading the book the lacking information can be addressed on its own without the readership of the book being an issue.

Much of the relevant claims made by Clarke can be evaluated without the book.

And it cuts both ways, the overwhelming majority of the participants on A2K who agree with Clarke haven't read the book either.

IMO, ya gotta take the positions as they are presented and whether or not someone has read the book is irrelevant. If the value of the information is a differentiating factor then there will be a difference in factual basis for each position. Which is, itself, a sound foundation for disagreement.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 07:11 pm
We'll note also the recent WP story on the speech Rice was scheduled to give on Sept 11, on the topic of security. Missle defence was the major issue to be addressed. al Qaeda was not even mentioned.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 07:25 pm
Quote:
But blatham, the call to read the book is a form of ad hominem itself. If the lacking information is a result of not reading the book the lacking information can be addressed on its own without the readership of the book being an issue.

Much of the relevant claims made by Clarke can be evaluated without the book.

And it cuts both ways, the overwhelming majority of the participants on A2K who agree with Clarke haven't read the book either.


Well, what level of self-education ought we to call for amongst ourselves? Below what point does the engagement in discussion become worthless parroting? It isn't an ad hominem to differentiate between education and lack of it on a specific topic. But granted, I can't insist on the standard of book being read for this thread. But I certainly can suggest (I did use 'ought') that if we are going to do this exercise with integrity, then we 'ought' to avail ourselves of the information, or speak less.

If someone were to say, 'Well, it's Bush, so it's bound to be untrue', that's valueless. But equally valueless is 'Clarke did it for money'.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 07:26 pm
Dr. Rice:

Quote:
"No al Qaeda plan was turned over to the new administration" by the Clinton administration.

03/22/04

On the 5th day of the Bush administration (January 25), Clarke forwarded the 1998 Delenda plan and his December 2000 strategy paper to Dr. Rice which included a covert action plan from the CIA called 'Blue Sky'.
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 07:27 pm
911 Cover Up
Clarke's Public Service
By Tom Maertens
Star Tribune

Sunday 28 March 2004

MANKATO, MINN. ? Richard Clarke, who served as the national coordinator for counterterrorism in the White House, argues in his new book, ?Against All Enemies,? that the Bush administration ignored the threat from Al-Qaida and instead chose to fight ?the wrong war? by attacking Iraq.

The troops who could have been used in Afghanistan to capture Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaida were instead held back for the planned invasion of Iraq. In contrast to the 150,000 men sent to Iraq, only about 11,500 troops were sent to Afghanistan, a force smaller than the New York City police. The result is that Bin Laden and his followers escaped across the border into Pakistan.

Meanwhile, American troops are being killed in Iraq, our army is stretched to the breaking point, our international credibility is at an all-time low, Muslims are further radicalized to join a jihad against us, and our relations with key allies have been damaged.

The Bush administration has counterattacked furiously, impugning Clarke?s facts, his timing and his motives. Marc Racicot, chairman of the Bush-Cheney campaign, said on national television that Clarke?s charges were ?almost malevolent.? The qualifier ?almost? is apparently meant to distinguish Clarke from someone genuinely malevolent ? Saddam Hussein, perhaps.

Clarke was a colleague of mine for 15 months in the White House, under both Bill Clinton and George W. Bush. Subsequently, I moved to the U.S. State Department as deputy coordinator for counterterrorism, and worked with him and his staff before and after 9/11.

My experience confirms what Clarke relates in his book. The Bush administration did ignore the threat of terrorism. It was focused on tax cuts, building a ballistic missile system, withdrawing from the ABM Treaty and rejecting the Kyoto Protocol.

Administration officials seemed to believe that the terrorist attacks on the United States in East Africa, and on the USS Cole, were due to Clinton?s moral failings. Since they didn?t share those weaknesses, and because President Bush had the blessing of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and Justice Antonin Scalia, we would be spared any serious attack. Moral superiority would triumph.

I personally believe that Clarke was one of the most effective government officials I have ever worked with ? most effective, but not the most loved. He has been described as a bureaucratic steamroller, and he no doubt ruffled some feathers, but who better to put in charge of counterterrorism? Unfortunately, he suffered the fate of Cassandra: He was able to foresee the future but not convince his leaders of the threat.

Despite its own failings, the Bush administration has conducted a scorched-earth smear campaign against Clarke, because his book threatens Bush?s carefully orchestrated image as a war president.

The president keeps repeating the mantra that America is safer now that Saddam is gone. But no weapons of mass destruction (WMD) have been found in Iraq, and Bush now admits that Saddam was not involved in 9/11. The future of a nuclear-armed Pakistan is far more important to our security than was Iraq.

We have also learned from former Treasury Secretary Paul O?Neill that the president spoke of overthrowing Saddam from the day he arrived in office. Clarke reports that on Sept. 12, 2001, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was already advocating bombing Iraq, even though Clarke told him that Iraq was not involved in the 9/11 attack.

We also know that some people who became members of the Bush administration had been advocating the overthrow of Saddam since 1996. The president?s claim that this was a war of necessity was never supported by the facts. But what better to stir up patriotic fervor in the run-up to an election than a war?

Is this too cynical?

Karl Rove, the president?s political adviser, is said to reread Machiavelli the way the devout study their Bibles. It was the Bush-Rove team that deployed the scurrilous push-poll techniques against Sen. John McCain in the 2000 South Carolina primary. (Sample question: ?Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John McCain for president if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?? In reality, the brown-skinned child with McCain was his adopted Bangladeshi daughter, but the race-baiting worked and McCain was defeated.)

It was also Rove who in 2002 counseled Republican congressional candidates to ?run on the war.? This is a man who recognizes a potent political prop when he sees one. Is this the real reason for the invasion of Iraq? The Bush administration?s other justifications don?t hold water.

The Bush-Cheney ads don?t show the dead or wounded from that war, of course, nor do the cheerleaders on Fox News, despite the nearly 4,000 casualties we have suffered in Iraq to date.

They don?t like to talk about the $160 billion we have spent to run the war either. That works out to $571 for each man, woman and child, or $2,285 for a family of four. And the cost is sure to go higher.

Clarke?s gutsy insider recounting of events related to 9/11 is an important public service. From my perspective, the Bush administration has practiced the most cynical, opportunistic form of politics I witnessed in my 28 years in government: hijacking legitimate American outrage and patriotism over 9/11 to conduct a pre-ordained war against Saddam Hussein.

That invasion was then misleadingly packaged as a war on terrorism and used to sell more tax cuts, the USA Patriot Act, oil drilling in ANWR, exemptions to environmental laws and other controversial programs. Those who have opposed the misguided invasion have been labeled appeasers and unpatriotic for failing to support ?the troops? ? meaning the president?s policies.

As Clarke has observed, the real war is against Al-Qaida. Instead, the Bush administration has involved us in a breath takingly cynical, unprovoked war against Iraq, under false pretenses, which it now uses to justify the reelection of a president who has violated the public trust.

-------

Tom Maertens, now retired, also served as a Naval officer during the Vietnam era and a Peace Corps volunteer in Africa.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 07:27 pm
blatham wrote:

If someone were to say, 'Well, it's Bush, so it's bound to be untrue', that's valueless. But equally valueless is 'Clarke did it for money'.


Amen.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 07:27 pm
Martin Peretz, TNR editor-in-chief, offers a take on Clarke's allegations that neither "camp" in the debate here will be all too happy about ... which always makes me suspect someone might have a point.

Plus, it's a take that should sober the liberals here about any claims they might make that Clarke and they represent the same side in the debate - and that might make Sofia actually identify with him, instead.

So this seems like a good moment to bring it up.

Quote:
EVERYONE FAILED TO FIGHT TERRORISM.
Both Houses

by Martin Peretz

Post date 04.01.04 | Issue date 04.12.04

Transnational terrorism is by now on everybody's tongue and maybe even everybody's mind. But it wasn't so long ago that the threat of terrorism was a preoccupation of the very few, Richard Clarke chief among them. The American foreign and security policy mainstream--the soft-power advocates, the Eurocentric multilateralists, the globalization enthusiasts, and Kofi Annan's dinner partners, the U.N.-firsters--considered him a dangerous crank, an obsessive deserving only ridicule. America's ever-alert, and often hysterical, civil libertarians were alarmed by his ideas for safeguarding the homeland. To make matters worse, he was a consistent ally of Israel in the governments of Bush père and Bill Clinton [..]. Clarke's job was, in fact, always in peril during the Clinton administration, and its structural sloppiness may be one reason he survived. [..]

The fact that Palestinian terrorism had been deemed modern time's singular--or, at least, only ongoing--species made it seem a parochial concern. But it wasn't. [..] But few had the stomach to face the truth, and indifference reigned virtually everywhere.

Not excluding the United States. This year's partisanship has obscured the obvious truth behind the current 9/11 Commission hearings: Before September 11, 2001, both the Clinton and Bush administrations were unable or unwilling to mobilize the country against the growing terrorism threat. Neither the first World Trade Center bombing (which the Justice Department treated as a simple case of law enforcement), the enormities at two of our African embassies in 1998, nor the 2000 attack on the USS Cole disturbed our stupor. There is a rabbinic commentary about the tale of the walls of Jericho collapsing after Joshua's soldiers marched around them seven times. The first time, the city's inhabitants were frightened. The second, they were mildly disturbed. By the seventh, they couldn't care less and didn't defend the walls at all.

It wasn't as if the Clinton and Bush governments did nothing with regard to the terrorism threat. Under both presidents, Clarke pursued, among other matters, his longtime and highly justified fixation with the threat of cyberterrorism. But neither administration could overcome the ingrained habits of insularity and protectiveness that characterized America's security agencies. That is why every account of September 11 contains hair-raising tales about the FBI, the CIA, the State Department, and the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). They did not talk to each other, and no one--neither Sandy Berger under President Clinton, nor Condoleezza Rice under President Bush--could knock their heads together. In fact, we have little evidence that the national security advisers even tried. That is why two September 11 terrorists, who were on the terrorism watch list of the CIA, were able to cross frontiers and why Mohammed Atta was able to roam the northeast corridor at will, board a plane in Portland, Maine, and then board the fated craft in Boston. It is also why timely reports from FBI agents in Phoenix and Minneapolis--one with a suspicion about flight schools, the other with suspicions about a single conspirator, Zacarias Moussaoui--were ignored.

One of the few high-level officials who comes off well in Clarke's book is Vice President Al Gore. Twice during the Clinton administration, Gore led attempts to enhance the security of air travel. If the salient suggestions of his two efforts--one a commission focused on airline safety and security, the other his reinventing-government initiative that sought to reform the relevant bureaucracies (including the FAA)--had been put into effect, the United States would have been less vulnerable to Atta and his colleagues. The Gore commission's recommendations--high-tech baggage-screening for explosives and better training for screeners--are now mandatory. But, at the time, they were undercut by airline lobbyists and Republican congressmen. Even more controversial (and potentially valuable) were the commission's recommendations for passenger screening, which, a former Gore aide involved in both studies told me, were killed by Democratic congressmen and the American Civil Liberties Union. Other ideas--for protective devices in cockpits and sky marshals--were shelved by the commission when it became clear they too would be politically impossible. (Even The New Republic doubted their value.) Some of the Gore recommendations were put into effect within a week after September 11, but not all.

Even worse than the failure to take airline security seriously was the failure to really go after Osama bin Laden. The inhibitions that prevented American forces from trying to kill bin Laden when they had opportunities reflect a paralyzing blindness about the mortal perils posed by terrorism to civil society. This was the triumph of queasy international lawyers over ethical realists. Such rules date back to the Ford administration's interdict, pushed on it by the Church Committee, against assassinations of anyone. Even now, technically, our armed forces cannot kill any important terrorist unless they are actually trying to capture him--or pretending to.

Then there is the enticement of diplomacy, a mirage when it comes to Al Qaeda and its sponsors. The Taliban couldn't, or wouldn't, produce bin Laden and neither did the Saudis. Diplomacy never works with apocalyptic partners. Yet the Clinton administration wasted much time chasing after intermediaries, and even the Bush administration appears to have done a bit of the same.

When, after the 1998 embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania, Clinton launched cruise missile strikes against sites in Afghanistan and Sudan, Republicans ridiculed the effort, not so much because the targets were flimsy or the power employed was meager, which they were. Instead, they claimed the attacks were meant to deflect public attention from his public troubles regarding his playmate Monica Lewinsky. This scorn would surely have prevented Clinton from pursuing a real military effort against Al Qaeda, which ran counter to his administration's instincts anyway.

Clarke, by contrast, was possessed by a compulsion about terrorism. Alas, he could not persuade either of the last two administrations for which he worked to share it. David Johnston and Todd S. Purdum in a March 25 article in The New York Times describe Clarke as having warned that "Al Qaeda had sleeper cells in many countries, including the United States." Now that the Democrats are so enthusiastic about Clarke and his ideas, let them and their presidential candidate put forward a concrete strategy for uncovering this diffused and malevolent underground. But perhaps John Kerry does not think this necessary. He has accused the Bush administration of having "exaggerat[ed]" the threat of terrorism, a judgment he may yet have to eat. But, then, let the Republicans, who are after all still in power, at least give the American public instructions about what it needs to know and do if and when another disaster strikes. Our ignorance on this matter is no tribute to George W. Bush. The sad fact is that both parties have failed us, and both of the presidents they have put forward in this anxious time have as well.

Martin Peretz is editor-in-chief of TNR.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 07:31 pm
It still seems like the only thing that will convince is documentation from both administrations. Otherwise, the only thing that will be proven is Condi, Powell, Bush, Berger, Clinton, Albright AND Clarke can talk. I mean Armitage refutes Clarke, Berger refutes Armitage, you have some viscerally partisan hacks on the Commission... I think a look at National Security documentation from BOTH administrations should clear it up.

When Clarke says, "...and they did nothing." I'm not convinced 1) He knew everything that was being done, or 2) that he's not exaggerating, because they rejected his plan or 3) that he's not purposefully inflicting wounds on an administration that didn't give him what he thought he deserved.

I do know he is profitting from 911, and that he is casting himself as the Only One Who Was Right Martyr. But I withhold judgement on whether or not he's lying or telling the truth, or something in between. We'll see what happens.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 07:39 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
blatham wrote:

If someone were to say, 'Well, it's Bush, so it's bound to be untrue', that's valueless. But equally valueless is 'Clarke did it for money'.


Amen.

I disagree.
The Bush insult means Bush would never tell the truth.
The Clarke slam is much more believable. He wrote a book. People do this to make money. Anti-Bush books are doing well. He was an insider in the Bush administration, now disgruntled. Cha-ching. Certainly, these items don't prove anything, but it is not equally as ridiculous an assertion that Bush, or any person, is to be immediately disbelieved.

<I just couldn't let that sit there.> :wink:
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 07:41 pm
nimh

I think that is a good piece, but insufficiently discerning. The commission clearly is concentrating (appropriately) on the failings of both administrations and most particularly, on the divisions and animosities between agencies that inhibited the flow of relevant communications to those who ought to have gotten it. The goal of the commission is to find out what happened, but so as to prevent future failures from the same sort of institutional problems.

Clarke's case is that the Bush administration, because of theoretical stance (and because of a deep and visceral dislike of anything Clintonesqe) became themselves an institutional problem. And he lays out the evidence for this charge with specificity and in quantity.

One picable bone...
Quote:
Neither the first World Trade Center bombing (which the Justice Department treated as a simple case of law enforcement),
The Justice Department is but one agency whose responsibility intersected with the first WTC bombing. Other agencies (FBI, CIA, and Clarke's agency) were operating quite differently.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 07:43 pm
Dr. Rice:

Quote:
"the fact of the matter is [that] the administration focused on this before 9/11."


(Press Secretary McClellan claimed that fighting terrorism was a top priority before 9-11 in numerous press briefings and Vice President Cheney said on Rush Limbaugh's radio program that Bush "wanted a far more effective policy for trying to deal with [terrorism], and that process was in motion throughout the spring.")

As I previously posted, Bush admitted to Bob Woodward that he "didn't feel the sense of urgency" about terrorism before 9/11.

In April 2001 the Bush administration released the government's annual terrorism report with no extensive mention of Osama bin Laden, as it had in prior years. Similarly, at an April meeting of deputies Clarke urged a focus on al Qaeda. Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz responded, "No, no, no. We don't have to deal with al-Qaeda. Why are we talking about that little guy? We have to talk about Iraqi terrorism against the United States."

One is the number of statements in the public record by Bush, Cheney or Rice mentioning al Qaeda or bin Laden from their inauguration until 9/11.

(edit: Thanks for the correction, Tarantulas. That made a huuuuge difference in administration credibility. :wink: )

Zero is the number of meetings held by Cheney's counterterrorism task force (which was created in May 2001).

Zero is the number of references to al Qaeda in Dr. Rice's 2000 Foreign Affairs article listing Bush's top foreign affairs priorities.

Zero is the number of references to al Qaeda in Rumsfeld's 2001 memo outlining national security priorities.

Zero is the number of references to terrorism in the Justice Department's top seven goals for 2001.

Zero is the number of National Security Council meetings held by Bush administration before invasion of Iraq was discussed (i.e., it was discussed at the very first meeting).
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 07:45 pm
I can't accept your contention that Clarke portrays himself as a martyr. In everything i've read (which does not include his book, i spend my book money on subjects which interest me more), and in the several interviews of him which i have heard, he not only has never complained of his public position or treatment since the storm arose, i've heard him in interviews side-step such a question. Nor can i believe that he is acting as though he were the only one who is right. He has time and again pointed to many others who tried to emphasize the AQ threat and who were ignored. I think your partisanship is showing in those statements. When he was interviewed on Fresh Air, he pointed out that the book would have gone to press much sooner had the White House not withheld its consent for so long. I am really disgusted by a charge that he is profiting from September 11th, especially the way the Idiot in Chief wraps himself in that flag at every opportunity.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 07:55 pm
Nimh--
Thanks for that.
When this whole thing happened, the CIA, FBI and all other over-inflated agencies got the finger pointed at them, and I think rightly so. Not so much for blame in what they did--but the stupid fact that they evolved in to feuding, jealous siblings...and were rendered ineffective.

It is telling that Gore's attempts to add to airline safety were shot down, and Clinton was his own victim--laying himself wide open for Wag The Dog accusations--

We were unprepared. I don't think the US public would have stood for some of the changes that were necessary, until after 911.

I think the one thing that falls to Bush is the time it took to formulate his anti-terrorism plan. But,even this is based on hearsay at this point.
0 Replies
 
 

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