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Is religion responsible for the opposition to peace in the Israel-Palestine conflict?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 13 Apr, 2013 07:43 am
@RABEL222,
There never will be a solution, except for the extermination of the Palestinians. They're working towards that goal. Nobody in our government can see that, because they're too afraid of the Jewish lobby.
Moment-in-Time
 
  0  
Sat 13 Apr, 2013 09:52 am
@RABEL222,
Quote:
How in the hell is a two state solution possible in this area as long as Israel allows their settlers to build cities in Palistianian territory and than gives them the protection of their army?


Hiya, Rabel. Your question is a highly interesting one. In my opinion and many others, more expert at this, I would say yes, religion does play a role in the mid east conflict, to a degree. Politics play the major role, however, and the two together, religion and politics, make a toxic mix.

With due regards to the present Middle East conflict, a two-state solution simply doesn't seem possible and this is what the stalling political PM, Bibi Netanyahu, is aspirant of. During GWB's first term, Netanyahu asked the incurious president if he could keep the settlements and land the settlers had already built on. The unripe Bush, the younger, said "yes." This answer conflicted with long held US mid east policy that all land must be negotiated among the two leaders themselves, Abbas, president of the Palestinian authority and the Israeli PM.

The bureaucratically astute Netanyahu knew of W's political naiveté, that he also did not have the intellectual capacity to be president of the United States and sought to exploit this mental vulnerability. But thinkers, possibly Condoleezza Rice, and some at the UN, cautioned GWB on this mid east request and the naive president of the US called Netanyahu, explaining that a Palestinian state must be a contiguous one and not made up of a patchwork...bits of land here and there...threaded through and through with illegal settler houses.

My country, the US, practices a double standard where the criminal policies of Israeli government is concerned....if the US were serious about Israel's quitting the occupation they would cut the 3~5 billion dollars that give that tiny nation annually....as it is the US dare not publicly criticize the unprincipled Zionist nation.

Politics play an enormous role in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict; politics impact with great force the Pro-Israeli US congress. Many congressmen in the US congress would throw their mother under the bus for Israel. Why is this? Because AIPAC - The American Israel Public Affairs Committee, A Lobby group for Israel, contribute huge sums of money to each congressional individual across the board, Democrat and Republican. Retaining power in the United States Congress is what these politicians would kill for. And when running for the Congress, House and Senate, they travel to Israel to grovel to the Israeli government.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Sat 13 Apr, 2013 10:18 am
@Moment-in-Time,
You wrote,
Quote:
Politics play the major role, however, and the two together, religion and politics, make a toxic mix.


Sounds like the good 'ole US of A. Mr. Green
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sat 13 Apr, 2013 01:49 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

There never will be a solution, except for the extermination of the Palestinians.


There are some Israelis that probably do think that, but others see them as a source of cheap labour, a bunch of modern day serfs. That's the real aim, to make a Palestinian state unviable, so the Palestinians can live in perpetual servitude.
Moment-in-Time
 
  2  
Sat 13 Apr, 2013 02:42 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:

The killing would be horrendous...not only in wars between Israel and other countries...but wars between non-Israeli countries and civil wars. But if we stayed out of it, the conflict would ultimately resolve itself. If we stay in...particularly with Israel getting unqualified support from us...this thing will drag out through eternity.


Ah, my fellow poster, I could not agree more. Israel is an expansionist nation who does not give back land but acquires it. The reason it gave back Mt. Sinai back to Egypt was because the US began giving the 5/5 million Jews (at that time) 5 billion dollars annually, enough to sweeten the deal with 2 billion (to Egypt, which today, has been reduced to 1.3 billion).

The Israeli government was in heaven under the GWB administration. The NEOCONS invaded Iraq....getting rid of a perceived Israeli enemy, Saddam Hussein, in addition to profiteering for Vice President Cheney's "former" company, and Halliburton and control of Iraq's oil well contracts. (To those not in the know, Iraq's unexplored oil wells dwarfs Saudi Arabia.) They had plans to invade Iran and Syria on behalf of Israel but got bogged down, losing over 4,500 US military.

With Israel's control of the mighty US, they will, given time for another GWB-LIKE administration led by NEOCONS, advance their aim of overcoming all obstacles to full control of the west bank, or so the tiny ZIONIST nation thinks. There is a coolness between President Obama and Prime Minister Netanyahu. The two distrust each other. Netanyahu tried to inject himself into the US Presidential Election in 2012, rooting for Mitt Romney. He still has to deal with Obama who cannot abide the Israeli PM.

Israel has chalked up many enemies world-wide; President Abbas already have the International community on his side ready to throw Israeli leaders in jail when they travel abroad if they refuse to make changes.....
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 13 Apr, 2013 02:56 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Good analysis of politics between Israel and the US; neocons are the biggest supporters of Israel, and "they" know it!
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Sun 14 Apr, 2013 09:54 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

There are some Israelis that probably do think that, but others see them as a source of cheap labour, a bunch of modern day serfs. That's the real aim, to make a Palestinian state unviable, so the Palestinians can live in perpetual servitude.


I'd be amazed if there weren't "some Israelis" that believe all Palestinians should be exterminate and "some" others who want to render them perpetual serfs, but th idea that either are "the real aim" of Israel is absurd.

On the one hand we have a group that, despite the tortured protestations of its apologists, have provided us, via the statements of its political and religious leaders that it wants to exterminate Jews in the region and on the other hand we have the supposition of pro-Palestinians.
InfraBlue
 
  0  
Sun 14 Apr, 2013 11:56 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

. . .we have a group that, despite the tortured protestations of its apologists, have provided us, via the statements of its political and religious leaders that it wants to exterminate Jews in the region. . .


Which group has said this?
izzythepush
 
  0  
Mon 15 Apr, 2013 01:31 am
@InfraBlue,
In fairness to Finn, there are various radio stations in the region that broadcast some pretty nasty anti-Semitic stuff. This is as a result of what Israel does, and given the choice of being turfed out of your home and subjected to daily harassment, or hearing offensive stuff on the radio, most people would choose the latter.
Moment-in-Time
 
  0  
Mon 15 Apr, 2013 03:02 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
izzythepush wrote:
There are some Israelis that probably do think that, but others see them as a source of cheap labour, a bunch of modern day serfs. That's the real aim, to make a Palestinian state unviable, so the Palestinians can live in perpetual servitude.


Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Quote:
I'd be amazed if there weren't "some Israelis" that believe all Palestinians should be exterminated and "some" others who want to render them perpetual serfs, but the idea that either are "the real aim" of Israel is absurd.


I agree, some Israeli extremists would like nothing better than for Palestinians to be exterminated; I'm not so sure about the "perpetual serfs" however. I'll concede that "the real aim" is for the Palestinians to just move away, go to Jordan *that country is bursting at the seams" or anywhere else....leave the West Bank and keep the focus of the world's spotlight off the thieving Israeli government.

Finn dAbuzz wrote
Quote:
On the one hand we have a group that, despite the tortured protestations of its apologists, have provided us, via the statements of its political and religious leaders that it wants to exterminate Jews in the region and on the other hand we have the supposition of pro-Palestinians.


There need not be vitriolic rhetoric of this sort if Israel would stop occupying Palestinian land....allow the Palestinians the same human rights Israeli citizens enjoy. The situation can easily be resolved; just quit the occupation, and allow the Palestinians their state, and rockets would stop raining down on Israel immediately....Hezbollah and Hamas would stop planning war against Israel. Why even tension among the Egyptian people would drop against Israel....There is an uneasy peace treaty between Israel and Egypt; the military want the 1.3 billion annual money, whereas the Muslim Brotherhood hates Israel so much they're willing to forego the annual stipend; the Egyptian people loathed the Zionist nation. Why even the Arab league has said it would recognize Israel if it were to return to its '67 borders.

But asking Israel to give back land, well, that's a tall order. The consequences we see in the Israeli government today, I believe, is a result of WW2. Hitler campaign against the European Jews has turned the survivors and their offspring into demons from hell. The majority of the IDF treat the Palestinians like they were roaches.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Mon 15 Apr, 2013 11:27 am
@Moment-in-Time,
You wrote,
Quote:
But asking Israel to give back land, well, that's a tall order. The consequences we see in the Israeli government today, I believe, is a result of WW2. Hitler campaign against the European Jews has turned the survivors and their offspring into demons from hell. The majority of the IDF treat the Palestinians like they were roaches.


What bothers me most is that the "good" Jews are few who speak out against this atrocity. I know there are many, but where are they?
InfraBlue
 
  0  
Mon 15 Apr, 2013 12:32 pm
@izzythepush,
Sure there's a lot of anti-Semitic stuff coming out of the region, but that there's a specific group that, "via the statements of its political and religious leaders wants to exterminate Jews in the region"?

I've searched around and haven't come across anything that identifies this group. Who is this group?
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Mon 15 Apr, 2013 12:52 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:

What bothers me most is that the "good" Jews are few who speak out against this atrocity. I know there are many, but where are they?


Yes, there are good decent Jews who're against the maltreatment of Palestinians in Israel but as is often the case their voices are drowned out. In America we have many Jews who're secular, who're Americans first and don't like be singled out as being a neocon. The US stifles any criticism of Israel here in America. We have politicians groveling before Israel, calling them our closest ally forever and ever! These politicians have not polled the average American. Being affiliated with a University we, along with most American campuses, are involved with the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS), a campaign started in support of the Palestinian cause for boycott, divestment and international sanctions against Israel. The US government will not allow us to go forward with this pursuit the way campuses did years ago against Apartheid South Africa. So much for freedom of speech in America!

The US is helping Israel harm itself. How long does Israel expect to run a racist nation while using apartheid tactics on the Palestinian people? Something has to give....

There is nothing permanent except change.....
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Mon 15 Apr, 2013 02:47 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
I fully agree with your assessment. Sad, isn't it; our country is supposed to have the freedom of speech.
0 Replies
 
Moment-in-Time
 
  0  
Tue 16 Apr, 2013 03:52 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:

Even Jesus Christ was an anti-Semite.


Hey, Cicerone,
Your statement is an interesting one seeing as how Jesus was a Hebrew. In today's terminology, the adjective, anti-Semitic, is confined to Jews exclusively, meaning prejudice towards Jews specifically, especially since most Arabs are Semites.

The figure, Jesus, was a historical figure whom many think was seen as a threat to the Romans and the status quo towards traditional Judaism; most of the stories about this man's short sojourn on earth were not written by men who lived during his life time... Information regarding Jesus was handed down orally, primarily by men who were illiterate and these unwritten versions have grown in the recounting. So one is hard put to justified your statement that Jesus was an anti-Semite.
RABEL222
 
  0  
Tue 16 Apr, 2013 04:59 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
So the New Testament isent historically accurate because illiterates passed down their version of history verbally over 3 or 4 hundred years. How would you classify the Old Testament which is taken from the Tanakh and the Qur'an which was verbally passed down over 10 0r 15 thousand years.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Tue 16 Apr, 2013 05:01 pm
@RABEL222,
Not 10 to 15 thousand years. Can't be more than 3,500 years.
Moment-in-Time
 
  0  
Tue 16 Apr, 2013 05:15 pm
@RABEL222,
Quote:

So the New Testament isent historically accurate because illiterates passed down their version of history verbally over 3 or 4 hundred years. How would you classify the Old Testament which is taken from the Tanakh and the Qur'an which was verbally passed down over 10 0r 15 thousand years.


Judaism is 4,000 years old and Christianity is 2000. Scrolls were written by the Hebrews with many of the Hebrew scribes mostly educated, and possibly the only ones in a people who were not literate. But my narrative was in relationship to Jesus whom it was said by one poster to be an Anti-Semite. Jesus' life wasn't written about until at least 200 years after his death. Words of his life was handed down by word of mouth and as men will, the story has been embellished. But the Old Testament is also filled with contradictions and can be said by many to be almost childlike in simplicity.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Tue 16 Apr, 2013 05:37 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
or our history as the "defender of democracy."


Considering the quotations, CI, it's hard to tell if you were serious or if this was major tongue in cheek.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Tue 16 Apr, 2013 05:41 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
It was, as I said, a gratuitous hit by you on Obama.


When Frank says something two or more times it has to be true.
0 Replies
 
 

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