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Where is the self? How can dualism stand if it's just a fiction?

 
 
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 12:46 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
<lag>
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 01:02 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
Well yes, no, Spade but thanks for the q

Guess I was saying some of us are better off not knowing the way things really are

I suppose I should have used more common words in short sentence
igm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 01:08 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Quote:
Please feel free to explore in other directions what the consequences and ramifications are of living a life that is less 'self-obsessed'.

I think this is a very easy one to break down indeed...I think it is simply one of the greatest strengths, and probably the single-handed greatest concept that Buddhism has to offer, over pretty much every other philosophy, or religion...The whole notions of self-evaluations, while also promoting a life less self-centered...Or being a much more humble, simple, happy, empathetic, forgiving, accepting, kind, friendly, compassionate, caring...etc person...about every situation, and always being mindful or aware of these actions and the ramifications of ones own actions, is simply well advanced past any other philosophy, or the ways it is demonstrated as prominent in any other organized religion...

I think the fact that most Buddhists are very generous, happy, caring...etc people...Are the main reasons I choose to participate in Buddhists threads since I am not a Buddhist myself....And utterly feel compelled to get to know them better and understand them more...Because I want to strive to be those characteristics myself as much as I possibly can...Just like a Buddhist does...

And I would also like to say that I hope Christians one day embrace the significant importance of these self-notions while preaching how important faith is...

I think by what I have just said...It should be clear what I think the ramifications of being more self-obsessed would be...

From my own personal experiences...(which may differ for each persons own perspective) But I can sense from the God I think exists, that being humble is simply the most underrated, admirable, characteristic that one can simply possess...

In other words, it is the most prevalent concept that a person can possess, that he simply finds favor and delight in...that most do not have...


Very well said! Thanks for your contribution... you're always welcome!
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 01:25 pm
@dalehileman,
I agree with you on that one mate...For sure...It is all a personal subjective view...
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 02:38 pm
@igm,
Quote,
Quote:
...The whole notions of self-evaluations, while also promoting a life less self-centered...Or being a much more humble, simple, happy, empathetic, forgiving, accepting, kind, friendly, compassionate, caring...etc person...about every situation, and always being mindful or aware of these actions and the ramifications of ones own actions, is simply well advanced past any other philosophy, or the ways it is demonstrated as prominent in any other organized religion...


What I'm missing is how the "kind, friendly, compassionate, caring...." is acted upon? We see and hear about discrimination and the mistreatment of minorities and different groups - not only in the US, but world-wide. How do we put into action these nice sounding nouns? Meditation alone is not going to do it, so how does one "activate" these nouns into action words?
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 02:47 pm
@cicerone imposter,
That was actually my post mate...

I think these notions are acted upon...when one is willing to self evaluate themselves...and wants to do it...I like the Buddhists view of this...Because they place emphasis on a reason to do it within their philosophy...As well as explaining philosophical reasons why it is a waste to not want to be generous, happy, caring, accepting, kind... etc...

I guess an answer to your question is that you can't really make anyone do something they do not want to do on their own...

But this person would just be a sociopath...And it is not really philosophy, or religion based then....

Philosophy or religion teaches why these notions can benefit oneself...But if someone does not find value in them and wants to just be nasty...I guess there is nothing that one could do to make them change...

But them having the freedom to do as they want, and no one forcing them to change does not rebuttal the effectiveness that philosophy, or religion can do...Because I am sure most atheists would at least claim that one who acts this way does not represent a rejection of beliefs...Just as a Buddhist would claim that someone is not Buddhist if they act this way...Just as a theist would explain that they are not following their theology if they are doing these actions....Unless their theology was to do whatever they wanted...But they would probably be seen as an extremist...
0 Replies
 
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 03:05 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Because I am sure most atheists would at least claim that one who acts this way does not represent a rejection of beliefs... = Because I am sure most atheists would at least claim that one who acts this way does not represent how most atheists would act or think...
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 03:50 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Quote,
Quote:
...The whole notions of self-evaluations, while also promoting a life less self-centered...Or being a much more humble, simple, happy, empathetic, forgiving, accepting, kind, friendly, compassionate, caring...etc person...about every situation, and always being mindful or aware of these actions and the ramifications of ones own actions, is simply well advanced past any other philosophy, or the ways it is demonstrated as prominent in any other organized religion...


What I'm missing is how the "kind, friendly,compassionate, caring...." is acted upon? We see and hear about discrimination and the mistreatment of minorities and different groups - not only in the US, but world-wide. How do we put into action these nice sounding nouns? Meditation alone is not going to do it, so how does one "activate" these nouns into action words?

ci, this is 'not' my quote you're asking me to comment on... I'm not sure I can comment on it... I'll leave it ,to who ever said it, to comment.
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 04:05 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

What I'm missing is how the "kind, friendly, compassionate, caring...." is acted upon? We see and hear about discrimination and the mistreatment of minorities and different groups - not only in the US, but world-wide. How do we put into action these nice sounding nouns? Meditation alone is not going to do it, so how does one "activate" these nouns into action words?

ci, I could just examine what you've said and just reply to that and not the quote you've posted... I'll have a think about a reply and get back to you. You of course make a good point.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 04:14 pm
@cicerone imposter,
ci, this doesn't mention meditation at all; doesn't it answer your question and if not I can elaborate if you would like me to?

igm wrote:

I'd like to thank 'everyone' for their contributions to this topic.

Next, we could look at the subject 'not' from the wisdom side but from the 'merit' side. The Buddha said, ‘to fly to enlightenment you need the two wings of merit and wisdom’.

Please feel free to explore in other directions what the consequences and ramifications are of living a life that is less 'self-obsessed'.

This aspect is less about absolute rigorous ‘reasoning’ and more about common-sense approaches to our actions and how they impact on others around us and our own well-being. I would say though that the two are inextricably linked i.e. actions are wiser the more wisdom one has (due to a lessening of a belief in a truly existent self) and wisdom develops from being careful about how one acts in the world – always trying to be virtuous and therefore less selfish.

In Buddhism virtue means either practicing the opposite of non-virtue or for the more realized, ceasing to do non-virtue and acting spontaneously from that state-of-mind (very tricky to get right because the underlying (sometimes hidden) intent maybe selfish).

As a guideline to Buddhist non-virtue, it is to -

Abandon:
  • Harming others.
  • Taking that which is not offered.
  • Sexual misconduct.
  • Telling lies for selfish reasons.
  • Harmful speech (although it could be true it is designed to hurt the feelings of others out of spite).
  • Slander.
  • Frivolous speech (in order to distract others from virtue).
  • Ignorance (not easy to do or explain).
  • Selfish desire.
  • Hatred.


Merit is the result of Virtue.

If anyone has any questions about this aspect of Buddhism then please ask… and of course ask whomever you wish.

Also, those who have contrasting ideas about how we should ‘act’ in the world can contribute and even (of course) argue against the Buddhist view of ‘what is virtuous’ and results in ‘merit’.

Is there any benefit to be experienced from not always putting ourselves first?

Is Buddhism pessimistic given the first 'Noble Truth' taught by Buddha that 'all' is suffering?

The Buddha said virtuous behavior leads to merit and the effect of merit is a happier life experience.

XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 04:15 pm
@igm,
Go for it mate! It makes no difference to me if you reply and give CI your views about what I had said... Or if you post to CI using my quote directly...Wink Wink Very Happy

It is all good mate...


If you want to be safe just to feel better, then quote what I have said, then quote what CI asked you, or what CI said...and then just give your views...

I would honestly like to hear what you have to say...Wink Very Happy 2 Cents
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 05:09 pm
@igm,
What I'm observing about Buddhism is that it's more about how any individual seeks personal enlightenment rather than to be active in helping others. One would think that words like "compassion" is more than a one-to-one connection to others, but to help pursue it through advocacy and action for equal treatment against those who are discriminated against. Maybe, I'm reading too much into how Buddhism works, but from personal observation of the Buddhists I know, they are not active in helping others - outside the church - no more so than others.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 05:14 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Aren't we all somewhat OT from the thread title

Getting back to….

Quote:
Where is the self?
I get the impression that the answer depends largely on what the respondent means by "Self", how abstract, etc

Quote:
How can dualism stand if it's just a fiction?
At first this sounds contradictory

However I can interpret it to ask, "…..if dualism lies to the right of that line we've drawn in the scale of abstraction," in which case it's a good q

Anyone unwilling to review some of my foregoing postings please advise, and I'll attempt to explain what's meant by that
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 05:16 pm
@dalehileman,
But it still covers some of the subjects being discussed like philosophy and buddhism.
MattDavis
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 06:09 pm
@JLNobody,
JLN wrote:
there may be at least two forms of "knowledge", those notions logically deduced from (unproven/unprovable) axioms and insights emerging from immediate (but, I suppose, not completely raw) experience.

I think what you are referring to is taking deduction axiomatically.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deductive_reasoning
And taking induction axiomatically.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning

They both in a sense look at things from seemingly polar opposite positions.
Deduction takes simple rules and extrapolates toward information that is more complex.
Induction takes complex phenomena and attempts to derive simpler rules.

It seems at least intuitive that if both "guesses" lead to agreements. Maybe be they are a bit better than "just guesses".
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 06:17 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
But it still covers some of the subjects being discussed like philosophy and buddhism.
Yes, well of course that's perfectly okay. I had hoped though that the main theme might get a little more attention
MattDavis
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 06:19 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
Thank you for such kind compassionate and tolerant words. (I've come to expect nothing less from you.)

I agree with much of what you said. Just a few things I want to add.
Humility is surely underrated in Western societies, however it like many things can be taken too far. I think the taking too far can happen when you undervalue your self. For instance be careful not to think so little of yourself, that you become less responsible for your actions.
You (Spade) are a compassionate person. That is great! Value that and know that about yourself. Your knowing that is going to obligate you to use that compassion to best help others.
I am a great nurse. I am not the best, but I value that skill. Knowing I have that skill obligates be to use it in the service of others.

Thanks as always Spade, you have quite a knack for improving the tone of any conversation. Very Happy
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 07:56 pm
@MattDavis,
Thanks a lot mate! And let me just say you gave me some valuable words of encouragement as well...Wink Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 10:44 pm
@igm,
Are you implying that phenomena are not real phenomena ? Even if the "self" is just a "phenomena" is its substance any less real ?
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2013 06:53 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Are you implying that phenomena are not real phenomena ? Even if the "self" is just a "phenomena" is its substance any less real ?

Fil, please could you define what characteristics phenomena would have to have to be real and I'll tell you if I am implying that they are not real.

If the self is a phenomenon then it will of course follow from that. Would you say the self is a phenomenon that truly exists or is it some other kind of appearance - if that's possible?
 

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