Where is the self? How can dualism stand if it's just a fiction?

@MattDavis,

The universe becoming aware of itself.

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@MattDavis,

But who could say it would be hard to see why they wanted to cease to exist and doing it? Or choosing to be reborn to look for more reasons why non-existence is the ultimate destiny? Unless there is a self, or a reason why a self would just be without suffering?

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

I think the key here that you are getting at is that you need a reason to both want to keep existing and to not want suffering. The unfolding dukkha concept is the way that Buddhism reconciles those competing purposes.

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@MattDavis,

You are quite right regarding the "path of least resistance".
This is why it is so difficult to 'defend' Buddhism online. You don't want to convince people to become nihilists, or suicidal.
This is the importance of having an ethical practice in place on the Buddhist path to enlightenment.

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@MattDavis,

I get what you are saying mate...But I have to say, if it gets people suicidal to come to these revelations that they believe are revealed wordlessly through meditation...I can't fathom that this is the ultimate path...If that is true, who would not choose to be reborn forever, while suffering forever just to be?

Something does not compute here to me...

Why would a human want to live so badly if they have to suffer? Unless the prize is self, and no suffering? Or why not constantly chose to be reborn forever if you do not want to cease? Which still points to living forever and a self...Or some sort of afterlife that is free from suffering and is forever...

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

All good points.
I just want to emphasize that if you have a 'revelation' that makes you suicidal.
It is not a revelation. It is an error.
Buddhism does not make this error, but it takes a lot of meditation and ethical practice to ensure that this error is not reached.

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@MattDavis,

Also to be fair if you have a 'revelation' that God wants you to kill someone or kill yourself.
This is not a revelation. This is an error.
Christianity does not make this error, but it takes a lot of prayer and ethical practice to ensure that the error is not made.

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@MattDavis,

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Maybe just to entertain a hypothetical...What if the universe is for a long period lifeless, asleep, unaware.

Yes of course, after the Big Bang the Big Show

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Then the universe begins to develop life.

Yes, that is by the conventional def

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…..to interact with it's surroundings….see itself as separate…..It has to…..because this is what distinguishes it (life) from everything else.

In another sense however, She is Life. Her body is the Whole Megillah and all the activity therein Her thinking. The Big Crunch reduces Her to a state of sleep to be awakened later at the next Big Bang

And yet without us Hers seems a hopeless, random, pointless exercise

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The separateness is very useful. You need it.

Precisely. Sounds like dualism but it's a necessary and practical concept

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Perhaps there is, however, a way for the life to realize that it is unique and special,…...not inseparable….. It is intimately joined……

Yes participate in a2k

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…... very "fuzzy" there isn't really a place where the non-life part stops and the life part begins.

Of course; otherwise Dualism rears its ugly, paradoxical, contradictory head

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@MattDavis,

I get what you are saying again mate...But it does not equate in my own eyes...I think I am having revelations about this...And am an avid believer, so I know if Buddha is correct I will have to suffer much to realize I have to end my own suffering...and while realizing this...I do not feel suicidal...And can fully see why one would try to come to roots to choose to cease, and why one would struggle and be reborn...And I can still say as an avid believer of another belief or faith other than Buddhism, that after this life if I see the truth is to cease to exist to end my own suffering, or choose to go on just to suffer more just to be...I will break my own cycle, so long as that is the ultimate truth...I think if someone finds these revelations to be suicidal it can't be their own path...their path would be to be reborn, and live again...So if Buddha is correct it will all work out anyways for everyone... Wink

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@igm,

Quote:

Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5259553)

Just to put things in perspective, igm…

…one of my closest friends here in non-cyber life is a Buddhist.

He and I play lots of 9 Ball…a game that almost requires lots of chitchat. Neither of us is likes small talk, so almost all of our conversations involve politics, philosophy or religion...often with back-and-forth about Buddhism.

You have to deal with me once in a while…and only when you really want to.

Imagine what that poor bastard has to put up with.

Been an interesting exchange, igm...I thank you for it.

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@dalehileman,

Yes exactly. Dualism is necessary, but not accurate.

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@MattDavis,

I certainly hope that any believer of the Christian God, or any self notion of God would not think it is a revelation to kill someone else...Or themselves...As believers of this God we pray for them... Wink

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@IRFRANK,

Quote:

Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5259553)
Frank

I think part of our problem here is the meaning of 'suffering'. This word is generally used as a translation of 'dukkha' in Pali. That is not a very good translation. See below:

No single English word adequately captures the full depth, range, and subtlety of the crucial Pali term dukkha. Over the years, many translations of the word have been used ("stress," "unsatisfactoriness," "suffering," etc.). Each has its own merits in a given context. There is value in not letting oneself get too comfortable with any one particular translation of the word, since the entire thrust of Buddhist practice is the broadening and deepening of one's understanding of dukkha until its roots are finally exposed and eradicated once and for all. One helpful rule of thumb: as soon as you think you've found the single best translation for the word, think again: for no matter how you describe dukkha, it's always deeper, subtler, and more unsatisfactory than that.
The definition

"Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha."

I think there were many areas where language separated us, Frank. But it was all interesting. I doubt you or igm expected to "come to a conclusion"...and for certain, I didn't.

We exchanged thoughts.

Not a bad thing at all.

Thanks for the time and conversations. We'll do lots more, I am sure.

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

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So if Buddha is correct it will all work out anyways for everyone...

I hope so, but lets just try to make it more like the Kingdom of Heaven down here... just in case. Wink

Ethics are important.

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@MattDavis,

I agree!

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Quote:

if Buddha is correct I will have to suffer much to realize I have to end my own suffering...

Spade permit me to observe as an outsider that it's hard to believe this is what Buddha taught

..or perhaps his pronouncements have suffered humanoid editing, just as Christ's

….or maybe I should scroll back through 28 pages to better understand this apparent discrepancy, in which case I apologize, only remarking that philo of this sort ought to be more often paraphrased using more common language in short sentences for benefit of your Average Clod (me)

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@dalehileman,

I apologize mate...I am not of the Buddhist beliefs...And I would have to say you are 100% correct that this would not be the way the Buddha has taught or explained these noble truths...But I must say I am an upfront or abrupt person...a fiery man at times, and that is my own rationalization of how I interpret his teachings...forgive me if I have said it bluntly...

I think I am going to go for a bit...Because I perceive I have made a few uneasy and this was not my intentions...

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

You've not made me uneasy Spade. I doubt if you have made anyone else uneasy either.
Don't apologize for being unsure of Buddhist teachings. Most "Buddhists" are unsure of Buddhist teachings.
Would you want someone to leave a discussion of Christianity if someone didn't understand Christian teachings?
I hope not. Very Happy

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@dalehileman,

How to ever avoid "misinterpretation" ?
No agreement is ever ABSOLUTELY reached regarding interpretations of any kind. We all tend to interpret as we see fit.

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@MattDavis,

Good point mate... Wink

But it was not you I had in mind...I just see it as very tricky because Christianity teaches a soul or self lives forever...I think it gets very complicated if you scope it down the ways I have...That (by a Buddhist claim, in conjunction to my own interpretations) you will be forever happy or free, once choosing the self to be totally non-existent...

And I apologize for being that abrupt about my own interpretations of the Buddhas teachings...

So how have you been mate? Anything new or interesting?

Would you say your atheism is of a Buddhist or Taoist view? Or another Chinese cultural religion? Or not really either because you tend to stay away from beliefs all together? And try to find your own path? It seems that you do take interest in the self-revelations that Buddhism teaches, no?

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Where is the self? How can dualism stand if it's just a fiction?

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