Who doesn't back gay marriage?

Absolutely not. While the calculation isn't going to be perfect (hence why i used ~) it's still representative of the truth or closer to it than what we were getting in this thread beforehand.

But fine, for the sake of argument, lets say my numbers were inaccurate... if it's not the point I was making that you have a problem with and it was just my math... do you deny the point of the post? That homosexuals are overrepresented in regards to pedophilia statistics and are much more likely to be pedophiles than heterosexuals?

If you deny that... then let's do the math together and see what we come up with. I have no problem using the math that you think is correct. But I assure you, you're not going to like the outcome of those calculations. The study that setanta keeps pointing to attempted to twist the numbers in favor of homosexuals throughout the entirety of their report. They even attempted to argue that a large percentage of the male on male pedophilia cannot be attributed to homosexuals because those pedophiles are "exclusive" making them not homosexual. And they STILL could only get the statistics down far enough to state that homosexuals were "only" TWICE as likely to be pedophiles as heterosexuals.

Would you like to try or are you going to keep sticking your head in the sand and acting like those numbers don't exist?

And just as a side note... you said the key phrase, "equal rights"... do you think incestuous couples should have equality as well?

I see. So your calculation was wrong, but your result was correct.


No, that's not subject to argument. Your numbers were most assuredly incorrect. And you apparently agree, since you no longer seem to be defending them. So that's some progress, I suppose.


Why would I agree with the point of your post while disagreeing with your math? Your math was the point of your post. You wanted to establish that a greater percentage of homosexuals are child molesters, and you used wildly incorrect numbers to arrive at that conclusion. Absent the math, the only thing left is a totally unsubstantiated assertion. Do I agree with that assertion? Give me a reason to agree with it and I might.


Do whatever calculations you think are appropriate.


If the numbers exist, you haven't done a very good job of revealing them.


Let's deal with this one issue at a time. We still haven't addressed your inadequacies in math. I need you to focus.

And Setanta talks about strawmen.

Why should he move to Uganda? He hasn't said anything about making homosexuality a capital offence. And it is not a capital crime in Uganda anyway. The UK has been "poised" to introduce ID cards but it hasn't happened.

The majority of African nations criminalize homosexuality. Presumably Setanta thinks they have no valid reason for doing so.

The president of South Africa has four wives.

What other group? You're advancing a right wing nutcase meme that you must have taken right out of Rush Limppaw or Sarah Palin.



And you believe in civil rights?

I'll ask you again. Since you seem to keep ignoring it. Are homosexuals more likely than heterosexuals to be pedophiles?

And while my numbers are not exactly representative of the population, that doesn't mean it's not a fair estimate. It's MUCH more of a true statistical representation of the rate of pedophilia in the homosexual community than you folks are trying push as truth.

The math is not absent, the math is simply not completely inclusive. But that's fine. After I come back from the store, I'm going to take your objections from your other post into consideration and readjust the numbers from my post to reflect your pro-homosexual agenda more appropriately. You're still not going to like the way the numbers come out, because you simply don't want to accept the conclusion. And I'm sure you'll come up with more objections as to why there are not that many homosexual pedophiles... but I'll readjust again afterwards... and you're still going to see that homosexuals are far overrepresented whereas heterosexuals are underrepresented.

See you say, do whatever calculations I think are appropriate.... you're being dishonest because regardless of what calculations I post, you're going to come up with objections as to why there should not be that many homosexual pedophiles. So we shall work in concert. I'll adjust my numbers... you try to manipulate them to help your point... and i'll readjust and show you that homosexuals are still overrepresented.

And I didn't think you'd want to talk about equality really. You just want to use it to justify your position when in reality you don't believe in equality.

What other group? Are you dense? Incestuous couples.... like i just told you.

I'm not the one sitting here crying and complaining about my group not getting civil rights and equality and then in the next breath telling people how I don't think other groups should have equality either because I disagree with their lifestyle.

I personally think you have every right to deny someone that equality before the law. Which is why homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry, neither should polygamous family units or incestuous couples.

And as I've attempted to differentiate several times... I don't care if you want to go down to your local park and have a marriage ceremony and give each other rings and all that good stuff and get married. But homosexuals have absolutely no right whatsoever to receive the benefits that come from marriage.

I have no idea. I haven't seen any convincing evidence one way or the other.


How do you know that? Your numbers were a joke, so they couldn't have given you any kind of fair estimate. An unfair estimate, sure, but not a fair one.


I've talked about incest and gay marriage elsewhere. I'm not inclined to drag that topic into this discussion when all I'm interested in is your claim that a significant percentage of homosexuals are child molesters.

The law, such as it is in the US, is beginning to recognize that hate filled bigots like you have no place in preventing people from receiving the same rights given to others.

You would have fit in perfectly during the days of slavery and then later when you would have offered "separate but equal".

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

Conclusion

The empirical research does not show that gay or bisexual men are any more likely than heterosexual men to molest children. This is not to argue that homosexual and bisexual men never molest children. But there is no scientific basis for asserting that they are more likely than heterosexual men to do so. And, as explained above, many child molesters cannot be characterized as having an adult sexual orientation at all; they are fixated on children.

Didn't you JUST say that someone wanting an incestuous marriage is total nonsense?

Doesn't that, according to your logic, make you just as much of a "hate filled bigot" as you're attempting to make me out to be?

I challenge your assertion and want you to back up your claim. Every time I have this discussion with a homosexual, or someone who is supporting them, they always make this same argument about pedophiles can't be labeled homosexuals and they always source the EXACT same webpage/document:

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/...olestation.html

The problem is, this is not a study or even a legitimate survey. This is a glorified blog entry by a self-described "internationally recognized authority on sexual prejudice (also called homophobia), hate crimes, and AIDS stigma." Not only is this not an actual scientific study, it is simply this one man surveying a group of studies that he hand picks ALL of which are from the 70's and 80's except for a couple. He then comes out and says "case closed, after reviewing all these studies that I hand picked, I've concluded that homosexuals cannot be pedophiles." Providing this as a "source" is tantamount to me sourcing Jerry Falwell who went and hand picked a group of studies from the 70's and 80's and he comes out and tells you that "case closed, after reviewing all these studies I've concluded that homosexuals are all pedophiles."

Now... How about you back up your claim. Show that pedophiles have no sexual attraction to adults. Show that pedophiles have no preference in regards to the gender of their victim. Until then a male pedophile that has sex with a young boy is a homosexual

You see this is nothing more than an excuse. The only way homosexuals can justify the absolute ABSURDLY high rate of pedophilia in the homosexual community is to say that the guy who wants to have sex with that young boy isn't ACTUALLY a homosexual... he's some kind of weird third sexuality so you can't pin those activities on homosexuality. It's a ludicrous position to take.

No, but you can probably find some way to twist it to create some more memes.



I'm not doing that, ShadowX, you are.

This was my original post... I'm going to post Joe's objections (and correct a few) and then adjust the numbers to reflect the objections Joe had and lets see if they help the homosexuals cause out.

First of all, I made the claim that homosexuals are FAR more likely to be pedophiles than heterosexuals. Not slightly, but a statistically significant % difference in the two.

As setanta stated earlier. My claim is that <5% of the total population is homosexual.
Here is one source: (a source btw that is well-known to be supportive of homosexuality)
http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/Gates-How-Many-People-LGBT-Apr-2011.pdf
"Analyses suggest that there are more than 8 million adults in the US who are lesbian, gay, or bisexual, comprising 3.5% of the adult population. In total, the study suggests that approximately 9 million Americans identify as LGBT."

That's not just one study, but it is a combination of all of these.
National Epidemiological Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions. 2004-2005 - 1.7%
National Survey of Family Growth 2006-2008 - 3.7%
General Social Survey 2008 - 2.9%
California Health Interview Survey 2009 - 3.2%
National Survey of Sexual Health and Behavior 2009 - 5.6%
Canadian Community Health Survey 2005 - 1.9%
Australian Longitudinal Study of Health and Relationships 2005 - 2.1%
UK Integrated Household Survey 2009-2010 - 1.5%
Norwegian Living Conditions Survey 2010 - 1.2%

The only time you get higher numbers is when you get your numbers from the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force or whatever. Legitimate estimates almost always have the numbers at <5%.

But I'll be nice... and I'll give you 5% of the total population is LGBT.
If 5% of the total population is gay and the total population is 316,000,000 then we have ~15,800,000 homosexuals.

If 95% of the total population is heterosexual and the total population is 316,000,000 then we have ~300,200,000 heterosexuals.

Approximately 3-5% of the population are child molestors according to this article:
Seto MC.(2009) Pedophilia. Annual Review of Clinical Psychology 5:391–407.

And from this magazine:
Annual Review of Clinical Psychology
Vol. 5: 391-407 (Volume publication date April 2009)
DOI: 10.1146/annurev.clinpsy.032408.153618

Now let's say that 3% of the population are pedophiles. 3% of the total population (316,000,000) is 9,480,000 pedophiles.

Now according to these statistics, already provided earlier in this thread, from the Department of Justice:
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/saycrle.pdf
~27% of victims of pedophilia are males.
~98% of perpetrators of pedophilia are males.

If ~27% of 9,480,000 pedophiles are homosexual, that means we have 2,559,600 homosexual pedophiles.
If ~73% of 9,480,000 pedophiles are heterosexual, that means we have 6,920,400 heterosexual pedophiles.

We established that we have 300,200,000 heterosexuals... of which 6,920,400 are pedophiles. That means every heterosexual you meet has a 2.31% chance of being a pedophile.

We established that we have 15,800,000 homosexuals... of which 2,559,600 are pedophiles. That means that every homosexual you meet has a 16.2% chance of being a pedophile.

Remember, that's being nice on my part by saying homosexuals are 5% of the total population (instead of the 9,000,000 in the original source) and that the population of pedophiles was 3% not 5%. If I wasn't being nice to the homosexuals the %age for homosexuals being pedophiles would have been closer to 47.4%

(the extra math)
15800000 *.27 = 4266000 / 9000000 = 47.4%

So with a conservative number and attempting to be nice to the homosexuals... every homosexual you meet has at LEAST a 16.2% chance of being a pedophile and can have up to a 47.4% chance of being a pedophile... The actual number is most likely somewhere in between those figures.

Now I'm sorry if you don't like those numbers... but you sure as heck can't refute them.

You can start crying about rightwing talking points... but how about you actually provide evidence for why my numbers are inaccurate.

My apologies, that was izzy that stated it was nonsense.

But you've expressed this idea of equality and civil rights as well. Do you think incestuous couples should receive those same civil rights and equality as homosexuals?

I show that your numbers are crap, and so, in response, you come back with the same numbers. Perhaps you're not aware of the fact that repeating false information doesn't make it true.


I haven't read the Seto article, but I'm so confident that it doesn't say "approximately 3-5% of the population are child molesters" that I will give you $100 if you can substantiate your claim.


That's the same article!


By what rationale do you calculate that approximately 27% of pedophiles are homosexual?

"You say that 27% of all victims of pedophiles are male, and then conclude that 27% of all pedophiles are gay men. That's clearly erroneous. If 90% of all murder victims are killed by men, would you conclude that 90% of all men are murderers? Well, maybe you would, but you shouldn't."

Maybe you meant to say something else. Because if 27% of all victims of pedophilia are males and 98% of pedophiles are male... Given 1000 victims, 27% of victims are male, that means 270 males. Considering 98% of all of those males were molested by men, that means we have 265 males who were molested by males. That means 26.5% of pedophile victims are molested by males. So, rounding up, 27% of all pedophiles are gay men, or more specifically for this debate are men who engage in homosexual activity which means they're not heterosexual.
ETA: I keep saying 98% because of another source that I keep mistaking for the bjs study. But I'll do the numbers for 96% instead.
1000*.27=270*.96 = 259.2. 259/1000 = 25.9% or 26%. So I will certainly adjust my calculations for that as well. They only represent 26%, not 27%. That'll surely help your case.

Now somehow you're going to attempt to assert that a male that wants to have sex with another male is actually a heterosexual... which is patently absurd.

But one of your more reasonable objections are that there is most likely not a 1:1 ratio of victim to offender. Well the report (http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/saycrle.pdf) actually addresses that on page 5.

"in 83% of juvenile female sexual assault victimizations, the female was the only victim, compared with 71% of male victimizations." So I will adjust my numbers to reflect this.

(Now I'd also like to use this opportunity to point out that homosexuals are not only much more likely to be pedophiles, but they're also more likely to be a multiple offender.)

You also made the mistake of comparing the total number of pedophiles in the country to only a running total of a few years of victims and you try to extrapolate that out as if that's the total number of victims of pedophilia throughout the entire country, when in reality it's only the number of reported victims over a few year span... not a total.

And who said anything about this being only convicted pedophiles who have assaulted children? This is about the POTENTIAL of an individual to be a pedophile. Which would require an attraction to children whether or not they have actually been convicted of it or not is irrelevant.

You also claim (and in another post state you'll give me $100, which I'm sure you're lying about that too) that the rate of pedophilia or child molestors in this country is around 3%. In fact Seto and another source stated the rate was between 3-9%.
Unfortunately you're not going to be willing to actually get his article because you'll refuse to pay for it. However, I have another article here who sources the Seto article and this is what it states.
http://www.bahrainmedicalbulletin.com/september_2011/CSA_perptrators.pdf
"In Western countries, the prevalence rate of pedophilia is estimated to be between 3%-9%."
Their source?
Seto MC. PEdophilia. Annual Review of Clinical Psychology 2009; 5: 391-407
Ryan CW, Hall MD, Richard CW, et al. A Profile of Pedophilia; Definition, Characterstics of Offenders, Recidivism, Treatment Outcomes, and Forensic Issues. Mayo Clinic Proceedings 2007;82;457-71.
I'll be waiting for you to pm me to get your paypal information for that 100 bucks.

"You say that 3% of the population is composed of child molesters. That's wrong."
In fact that is correct and if anything the numbers are a little higher according to Mr. Seto. How about you do your research before popping off at the mouth. Next time maybe you won't owe me $100.

Math is not that hard. Anymore objections before I adjust my numbers accordingly?

I know that's the same article genius... I was pointing out what magazine it was in.

Oh and Joe... I'd also like to point out... that only around 3% of the sexual assault crimes against children are actually reported. Would you like me to calculate that into the numbers as well? That will really really screw up the numbers for the homosexuals.

Nahhhh I won't do that to you yet.

Look at the numbers Joe you cannot win this argument. And you know you cannot win it. The numbers are too large, too lopsided and too damning Against the homosexuals. You will never be able to manipulate them enough.

The only way that you can statistically win this argument is by doing exactly what that professor at ucdavis did. That is to attempt to argue that a male that wants to have sex with another male is somehow I'm not homosexual. That is the only way you can manipulate the numbers far enough in the homosexuals favor.