Religious bigotry in seventh grade class room

@Lash,

Lash wrote:

No one should care.

Not true, I think, since Christians of the Evangelical persuasian do believe they have a person relationship with God (aka, Jesus), and I thought that from their perspective Catholicism does not, plus Catholicism allows for absolution of one's sins, so I can understand if such an Evangelical Christian might think that his/her interacting with someone that is Catholic might reflect a different set of moral standards than what he/she might have. Just playing Devil's Advocate.

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@Foofie,

You're asking someone to feel remorseful over something done by someone else, before most of were born or way to young to have responsibility or even memories of the events? How does that work?

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@Lash,

Lash wrote:

Shouldn't we only feel embarrassed when we actually DID the thing? Would you avoid teaching the Trail of Tears or Jim Crow due to embarrassment? Would it color how you covered the subjects?

To me, embarrassment connotes personal responsibility or guilt.

Or, that embarrassment connotes that one is embarrassed for being on a "team" that has a less than golden permanent record, so to speak.

In the way of example, wouldn't one think that there are many devout Catholics that are embarrassed by the incidents of pedophilia? Just because one continues to practice the faith wouldn't mean they don't feel embarrassment for the incidents? Do you get this?

Personal responsibility connotes guilt. Embarrassment connotes shame for being less than what one would have liked to be. There was a time when being pregnant out of wedlock elicited embarrassment and shame; so the social mores have changed in that regard. Also, once upon a time being poor was embarrassing and shameful; not really today, in the same way (read Death of a Salesman by Arthur Miller).

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@roger,

roger wrote:

You're asking someone to feel remorseful over something done by someone else, before most of were born or way to young to have responsibility or even memories of the events? How does that work?

It works because if one identifies with a "group," one should realize that one's "group" might not have a spotless permanent record, and therefore, the blemishes on the permanent record, so to speak, are shameful, and one would therefore have remorse over the shameful blemishes. Get it?

In my opinion, if one does not feel shame for the blemishes of one's group then one might not want to admit that the blemishes are truly blemishes; perhaps, just blips on the radar screen of history, in my opinion.

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@Foofie,

In spite of some continuing to assert that Jews are Christ killers, I believe I'm going to have to disagree.

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@Foofie,

No one should care about the teacher's relgion if the teacher is merely presenting a history of various religions - and not favoring, promoting, or unfairly characterizing one ...or any.

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@Foofie,

Quote:

Or, that embarrassment connotes that one is embarrassed for being on a "team" that has a less than golden permanent record, so to speak.

I guess you've made my point for me. If you are on the Nazi team, you should be embarrassed. If you are on the pedophilia team, yes.

For those who are just as disgusted by these events as the regular person, why be embarrassed?

The HUMAN team has less than a golden record.

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@Lash,

Lash wrote:

Quote:

Or, that embarrassment connotes that one is embarrassed for being on a "team" that has a less than golden permanent record, so to speak.

I guess you've made my point for me. If you are on the Nazi team, you should be embarrassed. If you are on the pedophilia team, yes.

For those who are just as disgusted by these events as the regular person, why be embarrassed?

The HUMAN team has less than a golden record.

O.K. We can't all be our brother's keeper, so to speak. However, in my opinion, too many people ignore the blemishes of their respective "teams," for the purpose of not ruining the enjoyment of feeling hubris of their team's successes. So, to repeat my earlier statement, I think of myself as an American secular Jew, not a white American. White Americans have slavery on their permanent record, so as to not feel shame, I prefer to not identify with whiteness; I identify with secular Jewish; perhaps, New Yorker too.

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@Lash,

Lash wrote:

No one should care about the teacher's relgion if the teacher is merely presenting a history of various religions - and not favoring, promoting, or unfairly characterizing one ...or any.

So, you're asking seventh grade students to show professionalism as students???

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@Foofie,

Hardly professionalism. Just to learn the history of a few religions. I expect questions at the beginning of the year. I patiently explain that just like we learn about how some nations began, we also learn about how some religions began. I don't tell them how I vote or what my personal beliefs are. I don't ask them theirs.

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@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

How about that one should feel "remorseful"? For example, the problem I have with "German guilt" over the Holocaust is that yes, Germans mostly say it was wrong to commit genocide. And, yes, Germans mostly say it was based on canards about Jews, or whoever. However, how many Germans say they are remorseful for what was done? In my opinion, remorse might be an emotion that precedes embarrassment for what one's group might have done. So, without German "remorse" I just think Germans are spouting the proverbial "party line," but privately like the idea they were the winners of the German culture, and that the German Jews (that had been in Germany for a millenia, at least) are no longer competing in the society. So, no remorse, no embarrassment, no real regret, in my opinion.

You're statement about how "Germans mostly" feel, what Germans "mostly say" is based on what evidence?

But agree that over the years the publicly and privately 'feelings' have changed ... and no-one talks about the genocide the Germans did towards the Herero and Nama at all.

What is done (especially in these days) really is something what you call "party line": any place, any street name which only slightly is related the Nazis, is renamed (e.g. the Hindenburg Place in Münster is now the Castle Place again, Hermann-Lönsstreets get renamed ...

I think that most Germans are 'remorseful' about what happened during the Nazi-period and what was done by past generations during that time.

I've never met someone who "privately like[s] the idea they were the winners of the German culture" - but since I don't know any Neo-Nazis, this is only anecdotal.

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@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

In the way of example, wouldn't one think that there are many devout Catholics that are embarrassed by the incidents of pedophilia? Just because one continues to practice the faith wouldn't mean they don't feel embarrassment for the incidents? Do you get this?

A bit of double standards here Fluff, I don't see you displaying any remorse/embarrassment over the disgraceful way Israel treats the Palestinians.

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@Walter Hinteler,

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@Foofie,

Quote:

How about that one should feel "remorseful"? For example, the problem I have with "German guilt" over the Holocaust is that yes, Germans mostly say it was wrong to commit genocide. And, yes, Germans mostly say it was based on canards about Jews, or whoever. However, how many Germans say they are remorseful for what was done? In my opinion, remorse might be an emotion that precedes embarrassment for what one's group might have done.

Finger pointing only highlights your stunning hypocrisy, Foofie. You point fingers and yet you defend your war criminal administrations, the terrorist actions that successive US governments have engaged in - still do to this very day.

For the life of me, I can't understand why Walter wouldn't point this up.

Quote:

In effect, a person that feels embarrassment for history I think should be applauded; otherwise, I would wonder if an individual wants his/her cake and eat it too; meaning identify with all sorts of patriotism to a country/religion/race, yet feel they do not have to "feel" the wrongness of history, beyond an intellectual admittance of wrongness. In other words, a mea culpa doesn't make the grade; feeling embarrassment is really the litmus test for a sincere mea culpa, in my opinion.

Good point, Foofie. Can you explain why there's none of this from the vast majority of Americans, for actions that are as heinous as those of the Nazis, over a much much longer period of time? Y'all just voted with your silence/complacency to give the Bush war criminals a free pass - I believe the reason was that the US was going thru a bit of a rough time what with your self induced financial troubles and all.

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@Lash,

Quote:

To me, embarrassment connotes personal responsibility or guilt.

Not necessarily personal guilt. I don't think any of these feelings should change how a subject was taught, except to point out the human failings and the fallacy of the motivation. I would certainly not avoid teaching something that was embarrassing. Maybe those things are more important to teach. The teaching of history is to allow some gaining of wisdom from the experience of others.

I am embarrassed by many of the actions of the human race, yesterday and today. I do feel some responsibility and that motivates me to act in a manner that might minimize the negative actions. I am responsible to the point that my actions and thoughts might influence others and myself.

It is interesting to me that here, many folks have divided up into 'teams' and point out how the other team is the bad one. Trying to separate themselves from that which they don't want to be identified. If we would see us all as humans and try to improve our own behavior, rather than punish the other guy, we might make more progress. To me this other guy and team mentality is part of the problem. But it is a very central part of natural human behavior.

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@IRFRANK,

Quote:

Not necessarily personal guilt.

Of course there's no need for personal guilt, IR. Personal embarrassment, now that's a different issue.

Quote:

I would certainly not avoid teaching something that was embarrassing. Maybe those things are more important to teach. The teaching of history is to allow some gaining of wisdom from the experience of others.

I really have to ask then, how many more millions of people have to die, have to have their lives ruined, have their wealth stolen, be forced to live under brutal dictators, all at the hands of the US.

Yes, there are others who do the same or worse but why is it that in the US, supposedly a rule of law country, [unlike all the other "bad countries"] none of these war criminals/terrorists are ever held to account? Why is it that the history of the US is so badly taught, not only in school but to adults, on a daily basis?

Why did Bush et al get a free pass for two illegal invasions of sovereign nations wherein the count of dead, injured, lives truly destroyed, everything in strictly a numerical sense, makes 9-11 seem like a picnic in the park.

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@JTT,

Are you justifying the behavior of flying airplanes into buildings and killing a few thousand innocent people? Yes, the US is not the righteous party in any of the unjust things of the world, and your constant pattern of pointing that out does not justify the terror others have done. All countries claim the righteous position. None are justified. Tibet might be the most innocent of all and right now they are being destroyed, without much attention from the rest of the world. The suffering we humans promote on ourselves is endless.

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@IRFRANK,

Quote:

Are you justifying the behavior of flying airplanes into buildings and killing a few thousand innocent people?

I didn't even come remotely close to suggesting that, Frank. I said, numerically, the evil done to NYC and the US isn't anywhere close to that then done by the US against two sovereign, innocent nations. Think for a moment about those numbers, the destruction of infrastucture, the lives ruined, the WMDs left around, the continuing carnage wreaked by depleted uranium, ... .

Do you think that the balance sheets are remotely close to equal?

Go back a little in time to before 9-11, when half a million Iraqi children were murdered because of the US & the UK's political machinations. Same thing for Afghanistan - US politicians who used the Afghans as political footballs in order to hand the Russians "their own Vietnam".

Do you think that that has helped to bring the balance sheets closer to equal?

Quote:

Tibet might be the most innocent of all and right now they are being destroyed, without much attention from the rest of the world.

Tibet would be different than Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, or any of the other places where the US has/had dictators in place for years and years, how?

Quote:

All countries claim the righteous position.

None have come anywhere close to having their propaganda succeed as well as the US has.

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@Lash,

Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I'd definitely suggest that you talk to the administration about school policies. It could be that the kid is in violation of school policy for denigrating others' religions.

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@IRFRANK,

How is Tibet being destroyed? More specifically, do you allege that the Tibetans were, as serfs of the Buddhist monasteries, better off then than they were after the Chinese invasion in 1950? In fact, the "rest of the world" seems to very uncritically buy the line of bullshit of the Dalai Lama and his toadies.

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Religious bigotry in seventh grade class room

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