32
   

Religious bigotry in seventh grade class room

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 11:00 am
By the way Joe, your earlier comment was predicated upon your version of what an Arian would likely have said about the divinity of the putative Jesus. Despite your smugness, i know of no reason to assume that you possess an expertise on the Arians sufficient that i would accept your ipse dixit on this matter. I'd visit the Socinians again, but i suspect you'd just produce another unsubstantiated ipse dixit claim, after which you would pretend that that had settled the matter.

Just as i accept the label of Buddhist for anyone who believes that Siddhartha did exist, reveres his memory, and follows or attempts to follow his alleged teachings, so i accept the label of Christian for anyone who believes Jesus did exist, reveres his memory, and follows or attempts to follow his alleged teachings. Nothing you have to say in your ex cathedra manner, without a shred of substantiation, convinces me i should think otherwise.
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 11:05 am
@Setanta,
Sorry, did I write a thousand years when I should have written 800 years? How sloppy of me Rolling Eyes

Seeing as the Arian heresy took place ~250-350 AD, that is indeed 'over a thousand years' from our current date. So, my statement was in fact accurate.

Cycloptichorn
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 11:11 am
@Cycloptichorn,
No, it wasn't accurate. I know of no reliable evidence that the Arians objected to praying to saints. I also know of no reliable evidence that the Perfects (or Cathars, as the church called them) objected to praying to saints. You have the burden of dredging up someone who objected to praying to saints at some point more or less a thousand years ago. Until you do, i'll continue to say that you're just making sh*t up.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 12:15 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

By the way Joe, your earlier comment was predicated upon your version of what an Arian would likely have said about the divinity of the putative Jesus. Despite your smugness, i know of no reason to assume that you possess an expertise on the Arians sufficient that i would accept your ipse dixit on this matter.

Nor would I expect you to -- which is why I provided a link to my previous post which contained further support for my position.

Setanta wrote:
I'd visit the Socinians again, but i suspect you'd just produce another unsubstantiated ipse dixit claim, after which you would pretend that that had settled the matter.

Visit anything you like. I'm still waiting for you to explain Socinian doctrine to me.

Setanta wrote:
Just as i accept the label of Buddhist for anyone who believes that Siddhartha did exist, reveres his memory, and follows or attempts to follow his alleged teachings, so i accept the label of Christian for anyone who believes Jesus did exist, reveres his memory, and follows or attempts to follow his alleged teachings. Nothing you have to say in your ex cathedra manner, without a shred of substantiation, convinces me i should think otherwise.

Well, I suppose that's an improvement over your previous position, which was that Christians are people who call themselves "Christians." But it's not much of an improvement. After all, Muslims and B'hais believe Jesus existed, revere his memory, and follow his teachings. Are Muslims and B'hais, therefore, Christians?
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 01:03 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
If the purpose of prayer is to elicit some beneficial effect, then what about the beneficial effect of laying on of hands?
In the Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran ... ... churches such is called 'sacrament', e.g. Baptism, Confirmation, Ordination, Anointing of the Sick (the latter mainly in Catholic, Orthodox and Anglican churches).
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 01:06 pm
@joefromchicago,
My position was never that people who call themselves Christians are Christians. I have already in this thread articulated this point of view which you have just quoted. It's hardly my fault if you can't keep track of the thread. Frankly, i'm tired of your snotty, snide remarks. You are not authority of any kind on religion, and i don't intend to waste any more time on your arrogance.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 01:07 pm
Here, explain Socinianism to yourself. Unlike you, i don't expect people to always automatically assume that i'm an authority on subjects upon which i comment. If called upon to provide evidence, i try to do so. You should try that method sometime, it would be a refreshing change.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 01:47 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
i don't intend to waste any more time on your arrogance.

Wow, I got both you and Cycloptichorn to leave in a huff. I guess that makes me the king of the know-it-alls.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 01:47 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Yeah, I kinda' figured you didn't understand it either.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 02:23 pm
@joefromchicago,
I obviously understand it better than you do. What i did is something you never do, which is to say, back up my claims. As for a Huff, i have a Jeep, so if i were to leave, it would be in a Jeep. However, with two feet of snow on the ground, and no let-up in sight, i'll likely stay right here.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 02:37 pm
@IRFRANK,
IRFRANK wrote:

This whole religious tolerance is a very difficult proposition. In most religions you make a 'vow' early on that you will practice the faith and absolve all others. How can you do that and tolerate others that disagree? Obviously, this has proven very difficult for the human race, with all the religious wars, etc.

I've decided that if you practice your religion and apply the learning to yourself and avoid applying it to a judgment of others, that is a reasonable path. As soon as you believe you have the ultimate truth and consider all other views as plain wrong, that just creates conflict. I think the point was made earlier that as soon as a person or group claims that they have the absolute truth, that demonstrates arrogance, not wisdom.


I believe that is a reasonable position, though beset with a number of complications.. I note that intolerance, more or less as you have defined it, is a fairly constant element of human history. Moreover, it is not exclusive to religion, either as a sourrce or an object of such intolerance. Such attitudes and behaviors have been directed at ethnic, tribal and racial minorities; people with dfferent cultural values, behaviors and sexual mores; and many other things that distinguish groups from one another ... including religion. Some degree of intolerance for illegal, or criminal behavior is also a generally accepted necessary part of civilized life.

We saw in the 20th century well organized state sponsored intolerance of all religion by an organized political system in the USSR that proclaimed its ability to perfect human behavior and society for all time. It failed, though the impulse behind it has not disappeared from the world. This suggest a question fairly central to issues in this thread. I detect an attitude on the part of some here, who apparently despise all religion as a fantasy or something similar, and who express views of some or all religions faiths which if expressed by a religious person or group, would loudly and widely be called intolerance.

My point here is that avoiding unnecessary judgments of others, and claims that one (or a group) has an absolute, exclusive of the truth (and therefore claims to know for sure what is good for others) is a general obligation, not one that pertains only to people of religious faith.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 02:39 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

Setanta wrote:
i don't intend to waste any more time on your arrogance.

Wow, I got both you and Cycloptichorn to leave in a huff. I guess that makes me the king of the know-it-alls.


I haven't left in a huff, I'm just not having a conversation with you on this topic any longer. You can see this is true, because I've continued to post in the thread.

Cycloptichorn
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 02:51 pm
O'George is peddling right-wing propaganda about the Soviet Union. Certainly the Soviet Union was no friend of religion, but there was no state-sponsored intolerance. It was highly unlikely that a public career would prosper if one were loudly religious--but then, no public career would prosper if one were not a member of the Communist Party, nor would any such career prosper if one were loudly a supporter of a competing political ideology. Essentially, the intolerance of the Soviet Union was toward any ideas which were not approved by the Politburo of the Central Committee of the Communist Party.

The Russian Orthodox have always loudly promoted the idea of active persecution by the Bolsheviks. However, priests and monks only fell afoul of the Bolsheviks if Trotsky's Red Army found them aiding Admiral Kolchak's White Russians. The other members of the Russian Orthodox clergy were unmolested, unless they found some other means of offending Bolshevik ideology to the point where they appeared as a threat to the Revolution.

Petr Alexeevich, also known as Peter the Great, had made the Russian Orthodox Church an arm of the imperial bureaucracy. His father, Alexei Mikhailovich, had already asserted the supremacy of the state over the church. So, when the Karensky government was overthrown by the Bolshevik revolution, all support for the church was withdrawn. Priests, monks and nuns were no longer paid salaries by the government; churches and monasteries and convents were no longer maintained by the government. Calling that religious intolerance is quite a stretch.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 06:58 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

O'George is peddling right-wing propaganda about the Soviet Union. Certainly the Soviet Union was no friend of religion, but there was no state-sponsored intolerance. It was highly unlikely that a public career would prosper if one were loudly religious--but then, no public career would prosper if one were not a member of the Communist Party, nor would any such career prosper if one were loudly a supporter of a competing political ideology. Essentially, the intolerance of the Soviet Union was toward any ideas which were not approved by the Politburo of the Central Committee of the Communist Party.


You are quibbling. Certainly the Soviet Union with its organized bureaucracies dedicated to the opposition to religions and oversight oif them; its anti religious propaganda; its systematic expropriation of the property of churches, and occasional imprisionment of clerics for anti soviet activities was equally as intolerant as Lash''s putative student. Intolerance doesn't automatically mean extermination.

Worse, you missed the central point. Intolerance is not an activity peculiar to religion or the religious. Atheists and merely contemporary progressives who are sure they know what's good for everyone else can be intolerant too. Indeed, they very often are very intolerant of opposition.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 07:14 pm
@IRFRANK,
What is surprising to me is there are no other children willing to take him on in that class as a young atheist I would had enjoy taking such a fellow student on even in the 50s to 60s.

I can still remember my joy after reading Tomas Paine "Age of Reason" as a young person and finding that even some of the founding fathers share my opinions on religion.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 08:24 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
I've heard Ratzinger teaching (as a professor) at university ....


Then he got bumped upstairs, eh, Walter?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 08:44 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
I'm not the one who made a completely unsupportable statement and then has furiously backtracked and obfuscated in a vain attempt to escape from that statement,


At least not in this thread, Joe.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 08:57 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
i have a Jeep, so if i were to leave, it would be in a Jeep. However, with two feet of snow on the ground, and no let-up in sight, i'll likely stay right here.


Jesus in a jeep, those Jeeps aren't worth a ****, are they, Set?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2013 03:11 am
@georgeob1,
I haven't argued against the point about the universality of intolerance, so that's a straw man. Soviet "anti-religious" bureaucracies were largely nowhere jobs for those appointed to them, and were intended to make the religious keep their heads down, and were effective to an extent. Plenty of people who were not religious were accused of anti-Soviet activities. The nature of the activities needs to be examined in each case. Was the Waco incident with armed Branch Davidians an example of the United States government actively persecuting religion? Was hunting down Eric Rudolph a case of persecuting someone for his religious views?

During the Great Patriotic War, the Chechens and many of the Ingush were deported far to the east of the front lines. Other Muslims were left unmolested. It's easy to claim this is a case of religious persecution until you ask why other Muslims were left unmolested, and until you look for the real reason the Chechens were deported. They had never accepted Russian rule. In the reign of Peter the Great, they slaughtered every member of the embassy he sent to them. In the 1850s, thinking Russia too embarrassed by the war we call the Crimean War, they rose and slaughtered every Russian they could get their hands on. (Stupid, stupid, stupid--the Russians came down on them like a ton of bricks.) In the 1940s, the Chechens all too easily allowed themselves to be convinced the Germans were winning (a case of wishful thinking gone badly wrong) and actively, openly collaborated with them. They paid the price, but it wasn't because they were Muslim.

Religious people are so eager to cry persecution that many of them continue to claim that the deportation of the so-called Kulaks was religious persecution. When one is dealing with Christians, it's a good idea to take a hard and a careful look at any allegations of persecution.

If churches were closed down, when they were technically the property of the state, was it necessarily persecution? With no one to maintain them, and the state having no reason to do so, how did that differ from dealing with any derelict building? I wonder if you apply the same standard to the seizure of church property under Henry VIII, during the English civil wars and during the French Revolution? Were those people and groups as evil as you claim the Soviets were?
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2013 04:49 am
@Setanta,
By the way, Sofia (Lash) is teaching medieval European history. Comments about other nations and other times are really not germane.
 

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