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Spain Kneels To Al-Qaeda

 
 
Lusatian
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2004 07:05 pm
Yield not to evils, but attack all the more boldly.
Virgil

Peace won by compromise is a short-lived achievement.
Author Unknown

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin
0 Replies
 
Jer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2004 07:06 pm
Lusatian,

Liked your last post, but wondering why you aren't going to continue to post?

In my previous post I mentioned that if the US were to hand over control of operations to the UN then Spain would keep soldiers in Iraq - because that was the report I'd been reading.

So the obvious solution, to me, was hey the US can get out of this mess, leave the "world" to deal with it, and there will be a lot more support if it's a UN initiative. It would also mean that Al Qaeda didn't win a victory because the Spanish troops would still be in Iraq.

Let's look at it from the POV of a Spaniard...

Living my life...the US decides to invade Iraq...I don't want any part of it...my government decides to support the US...most of my population doesn't support this decision...we get attacked because of our goverment's support...if we withdraw our support of the US we won't get attacked anymore...hmmm...tough decision?

Another question...suppose the Spanish media were in bed with the old government the way the US media is in bed with Bush & Co? Do you think the polls they were showing were accurate??

I don't know much at all about Spain - just taking guesses here. Would love to here more from people who do know. That's why I'm here - to learn.

Cheers,

-Jer-
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2004 07:44 pm
Jer wrote:

Another question...suppose the Spanish media were in bed with the old government the way the US media is in bed with Bush & Co? Do you think the polls they were showing were accurate??


Most polls had PP leading by a 3 to 4 % margin. Several polls; hence no governmental driving. Given statistical error, the most PSOE could hope for was a near tie.
But pollsters supposed an attendance to vote at about 70%, the normal historical level. This means, they filter the responses and leave out those less enthusiastic about voting. 78% of the Spaniards went to the polls.
According to the IPSOS-Eco Consulting exit poll, only 1% of those interviewed actually changed their vote in the last 2 days before the election.
But it seems that many who had abstention in mind -mostly young people and centrists- decided, in the last days, to vote.


The biggest Spanish TV networks are government owned. They always held Aznar's view. Private TV had the same view.

This did not happen with newspapers and radio, even if there was pressure from the government. Aznar himself called "El País", Spain's leading newspaper, to express his conviction about ETA being behind the attacks. But neither "El País" nor other papers paid attention to his plea.

According to leading Spanish socialists, "word of mouth" was the more important media against the government's failed cover-up operation.
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2004 07:52 pm
Who knows?
"Islamic terrorists murdered 200 people, disrupted the lives of thousands more, proudly claimed the atrocity, ... and got exactly what they wanted, based on that alone. Now they rejoice in their victory."

He won't be back to answer this but his statement bothered me.

How does anyone know that Al Q. got "exactly what they wanted'?

If the Spanish people would have voted differently would that have stopped Al Q. from attacking in Sapin or anywhere else?
0 Replies
 
Jer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2004 08:24 pm
fbaezer,

Thanks for replying - it's great to hear from people who follow things more closely than I do...and there are a lot of them...

It seems to me that if they were only polling 3-4% ahead then the polls were pretty meaningless. That it wasn't a ridiculous upset.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2004 08:58 pm
Brand X wrote:
It wasn't a landslide victory at 42% to 37% and the rest of the votes going to other parties.


Yes, but those other parties happen to overwhelmingly also be leftwing and have been against the war.

I.e., PSOE may have gotten only 43%, but the Leftist Union got another 5% and the Catalan Republican Left yet another 3%. Makes some 50% for the left, and then there's 3% for the Catalan autonomists, who also lean towards PSOE rather than PP.

That makes for a 53%-38% victory of the left against the right - with the remaining 9% going to parties, mostly regionalist, that each got less than 2% of the vote.

Landslide enough for me.
0 Replies
 
Jer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2004 09:01 pm
Sorry to get off topic here...but it looks like I finally shed my "newbie" skin!!! Yeah!
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2004 09:06 pm
nimh wrote:
Brand X wrote:
It wasn't a landslide victory at 42% to 37% and the rest of the votes going to other parties.


Yes, but those other parties happen to overwhelmingly also be leftwing and have been against the war.

I.e., PSOE may have gotten only 43%, but the Leftist Union got another 5% and the Catalan Republican left yet another 3%. Makes some 50% for the left, and then there's 3% for the Catalan autonomists, who also lean towards PSOE rather than PP.

That makes for a 53%-38% victory of the left against the right - with the remaining 9% going to parties, mostly regionalist, that each got less than 2% of the vote.

Landslide enough for me.


Well, if you look at that way... Laughing

Thanks, I think the larger than ever turn out to vote obviously pushed the vote further than expected.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2004 01:36 am
The prominent Madrid novelist Almudena Grandes in today's Guardian:
Quote:
[...]
But faced with horror, only honesty is befitting, there is no room for fear. It is important that no one is mistaken. On Sunday, the Spanish people voted bravely, they voted with rage and they voted according to their conscience. Spain has not humiliated herself before the attacks of terrorists, she has risen up against a government which humiliated her every day by using terrorism as an electoral weapon. Spain has shown that she is a decent country. The Socialist party has won the elections, but never was a victory so desired been at the same time as sad as this one.

source:
'Making politics with horror and blood'
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2004 03:36 pm
Having read some dozen (US-) commentaries, I can't bound to remember this famous quote from Bert Brecht, in which he critized the GDR-government in 1953:

"Wäre es da
Nicht doch einfacher, die Regierung
Löste das Volk auf und
Wählte ein anderes?".

After the uprising on June 17th
The Secretary of the Writers Union
Had flyers distributed in Stalin Alley that said
That the People had frivolously
Thrown away the Government's Confidence
And that they could only regain it
Through Redoubled Work.
But wouldn't it be
Simpler if the Government
Simply dissolved the People
And elected another?
0 Replies
 
 

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