Spain Kneels To Al-Qaeda

The war in Iraq was unpopular with the majority of Spaniards. By and large, they didn't want to be there in the first place. The Partido Popular got involved regardless. About the only place where the war has had popular support among the people of the nations of the coalition is the US.

The people actively voted their conscience.

Yeah. I'd think alot worse of them if they were all gun-ho about the war then pulled an about face because of the bombings. But that wasn't the case.

The fact of the matter was that the majority of the people did not want to go war in the first place. It was an administrative decision to join the "coalition", and the bombings pushed them over the edge to get someone in office who was more along the lines of what they wanted. Can't fault them for that, although I hope that somehow their numbers can be replaced. The last thing the troops in Iraq need now are lower numbers.

Certainly tells Al-Qaeda they are going about things the right way, doesn't it?

The extent that Spain is "kneeling" to Al-Qaida is to the same extent that its leaders kneeled to America's unrestrained stupidity by supporting the war.

It is true that this can be seen as a victory for terrorism, perhaps it will even encourage further terrorism. Indeed, it is unfortunate that American actions had to put the world in such a situation - where our allies are forced to choose between supporting our counter-productive policies, or going against the grain. As I wrote in one of the six or seven Spain related threads:

I'd also like to point out - as I have been pointing out for years now - that invading Iraq has literally nothing to do with fighting terrorism. I thought this fact was clear to even the most misinformed and benighted people by now, what with George Bush himself admitting that Saddam had no terrorist connections.

The Iraq debacle was a unilateral, illegal, unjustified war, based on false pretenses, imaginary weapons of mass destruction, imaginary terrorist conections, and an imaginary imminent threat. As a result of this blunder 10,000 innoecent civilians died. Granted, those civilians were poor, brown, Islamic, and on the other side of the world, and thus, their lives are barely worth a footnote on the evening news. But, still, you must realize that invading Iraq only served to increase the resentment that leads to terrorism in the first place. It was the most short-sighted and counterproductive foriegn policy decision imaginable.

So, please, for the sake of credibility on the boards, don't try ot justify this absurd war under the umbrella of fighting terrorism. And don't have the gall to suggest that it was in Spains best interest to support our little war. Its just ridiculous.

I really wish we could pick one thread to have this discussion, instead of spreading little snipets accross the board.

What crap, Lusatian!

As far as I know, like most progressive parties, the Spanish opposition, as it was then, did not support the war. This was presumably part of its platform. It has implemented it. Despite, presumably, knowing that people would choose to interpret it in the way that you have.

Plus what ILZ said.

Spain didn't kneel here. It just stood up and walked away.

The US invented the war on terrorism, and the US is directing it. They continue to give Al Qaeda more and more credibilty and strength. US actions make everyone more vulnerable.

It is almost certain that Spain would not have been a target if they hadn't cozied up the US government. They don't have the responsibility to present themselves as targets, especially since most of them opposed US actions in Iraq.

Why wouldn't the Spaniards want to bow out?

Spanish voters
They did the correct thing. They booted out the bootlickers of Bushco. ILZ is correct, as he is with many of his views. The illegal invasion of Iraq was one of the most stupid of moves. The American public are mostly sheep guided by the sheepherding Govt. and their Media sheep dogs.

Afghanistan was also an illegal invasion. Had this dumbass, greedy US Admin. gone after Al Q. exclusively they may have nuetered Al Q. by now. Why didn't they do this? My view: Al Q. is handy to have when a Govt. wishes to subdue it's citiizens. No mention of Al Q. or Osama for two years until recently due to the upcoming election.

Buschco should be charged with High Crimes and the entire lot of these gangsters should be in prison. That won't happen because the Oligarchy won't allow it. They may not even allow the voting out of this gang of criminal thieves. If the American public doesn't overwhlemingly vote to cast out this greedy, criminal Admin. the vote may be too close again.

Al Q. would fare better with Bushco in power, contrary to the Right Wing pundies spouting otherwise. Why? Bushcho is good for Al Q. expansion. Buschco would love to invade Syria and Iran next. Another 4 years and I assure readers that they would do so.

Democracy in Iraq? It's too absurd to even debate.

The people of Spain generally were opposed to Spain's becoming involved in the war. They also felt their government lied to them about ETA vs Al-Quaeda responsibility for the bombings. They did the democratic thing to express their dissatisfaction. They changed that government.

There's an election due in Australia before the end of the year. Even without the terrorism, it's possible (likely?) that the same thing will happen.

If you call a demonstration of 11 million Spaniards against that attack a kneeling down, than it was.

If you call Spain's fight against terrorism (you know about ETA, do you?), a kneeling down, yes, than it was.


IronLionZion wrote


Totally agreed.

I agree, and I hope that Austraila, Britian and even the US (to a point) follow suit and basically tell thier governments; "We said NO, you wouldn't listen to us, so YOU'RE FIRED"!

you said it!

I think that the premise of your question is false. America's war on Iraq, which Spain's outgoing administration decided to join, had nothing to do with terrorism, despite both administrations' assertions to the contrary. In fact, America strengthened Al Quaeda and the Taliban by withdrawing resources from the Afghanistan occupation in order to go to war with Iraq.

The Spanish electorate had simply gotten sick of an administration that couldn't tell facts from spin anymore. And when the the government initially insisted that it was all an ETA attack, they only got vindicated in their sickness. Bowing to the will of Al Quaeda had nothing to do with it.

In my opinion, the Spanish people did the right thing, and I hope the American people follow their example on November 2

Stop invading us or we will bomb you more.

Sounds more like a truce than a capitulation, especially, as mentioned all ready, 90 % of the Spanish people were against the war in the first place. It was their corrupt and bellicose leaders that dragged them into this situation. Seems to me the leaders are supposed to do what the people want them to do, not any damn thing they want.

Waging war against terror isn't going to end terrorism. Ending the oppression that created the terrorism is how you end terrorism. That's the key point here that is totally overlook by the warmongers. Oppression created the terrorists in the first place. In the Middle East, the leaders there were made rich by oil interests. Sales continued even though the sellers were hoarding the fortunes for themselves in their decadent western-styled palatial estates. The people were allowed to rot in poverty. The people finally had enough and starting fighting back against THEIR leaders, but the oil buyers continued to strengthen THEIR leaders who could care less about the oppression of their own people, so now the terrorists are rightly including those making THEIR leaders decadent as part of the problem needing to be attacked.

America cannot simply ignore its own guilt in this matter, or wipe out the people fighting against that guilt. Push has already come to shove, and it will get far worse before it gets better. So keep thinking we are so powerful and mighty and can wipe all our enemies off the face of the Earth. We are in reality, vunerable and wide open for attack. Our leaders have not made us safer, nor have they stemmed the tide of terror. Believe them if you want, but blame yourself when the destruction hits home.

Umba:

Well put!

It wasn't a landslide victory at 42% to 37% and the rest of the votes going to other parties.

Agree with Walter about the excessive number of little threads.

Agree with dlowan when she writes: "what crap, Lusatian!"

The following was written in another thread, in response to a remark that is not one tenth as stupid as the one who titles this thread:

Seriously, folks. Most people in the world don't understand American politics. A character like GWB is unenelectable almost anywhere but in the US. People outside the US do try to understand why this is possible. To do that, one must make an effort to try to get into the other peoples' minds, their way of living, their way of thinking, their culture.
It's damn easy to say: "Americans are stupid and selfish". It is wrong. They have a social, cultural and political history that explains the collective ideology and political system.

Can't a similar effort be made about another country?

To say that the Spanish electorate voted for the PSOE (IMHO one of the most intelligent, coherent and democratic parties in the world) because it was afraid of the bad guys is not only an extreme simplification of facts and a total misunderstanding, but also an ugly show of disrespect towards a people who was wise enough to have a peaceful transition from Fascism to a working democracy, wise enough to oust the Socialists when they got too fond of power, wise enough to understand when a war is wrong, wise enough to bring the Socialists back when it felt betrayed and lied to by the Conservatives.
A people, I most add, that actively participates in democratic life, goes by the millions to the streets in protest against terrorism, a people who is not afraid of Al-Qaeda, but angry at a government who went to war against the will of a huge majority (90%, according to polls; and millions demostrated against the war) but mostly, angry at a government who, in the face of a horrid massacre, hid the evidence that linked the Arab terrorists to it, because it feared that it would hurt them electoraly.

On the contrary, I believe the response of the Spaniards was exemplary.

If Al-Qaeda gives it another interpretation -and it will, since they are deranged- that's Al-Qaeda's problem.

If my country were pursuing a war that I would rather not have been in, and people associated with the other side in the conflict murdered hundreds of civilians in my country to punish me or frighten me, my reaction would probably be to pursue the war (or associated policies) ten times as much, rather than accede to the wishes of a murdering bully.

Or to make an analogy, if I were back in high school, and some bully slapped me across the face and ordered me not to cross a line in the sand, I would like to believe that I would step across it just to say to him: <expletive deleted>.

No matter what the Spanish voters' previous intentions or rationale, they have, in effect, said to Al Qaeda, "Sorry I made you mad. It won't happen again," which is no way to respond to evil of this magnitude.

They voted against the foreign policy of the former government.

I really wonder, what you all know about Spain and the Spaniards - and their voting attitudes.

Chapeau!

From: http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/16/spain.invest/index.html

"CNN has also obtained an al Qaeda document that spells out the terrorist group's plan to separate Spain from the U.S.-led coalition on Iraq.

The document was published on the main message board that is used by al Qaeda and its sympathizers last December.

The strategy spelled out in the document calls for using terrorist attacks to oust Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's Partido Popular from power and replace it with the Socialists.

That, in turn, was expected to drive a wedge between Washington and Madrid and result in the withdrawal of Spanish military forces from Iraq.

"We think the Spanish government will not stand more than two blows, or three at the most, before it will be forced to withdraw because of the public pressure on it," the al Qaeda document says.

'If its forces remain after these blows, the victory of the Socialist Party will be almost guaranteed -- and the withdrawal of Spanish forces will be on its campaign manifesto.' "