What sort of "God" would you like ?

truth
Deborah, with that statement you open the door to mystical enlightenment, if I may presume to say so.
I would add.
Enter and you see that you ARE your experience.
Then walk forward and see that you ARE experience.
Movining further you see "just experience".
After than, I don't know.

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Clary,

I've read the Pullman trilogy but cynically I see its popularity a function of its afinityfwith Tolkeinesque commercialism, rather than its rather obvious anti-religionist stance.

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rosborne979 wrote:

fresco wrote:
You have won a competition to redesign "God".
What characteristics should this entity possess and what actions would you like to see carried out.

I can think of no better Universe than the one we find ourselves with now. Despite it's challenges, I recognize the balance of benefit to cost, and can imagine no better world.

Much as the physical biology of this world has evolved to match its environment, and as such, the perceptual psychology of this entity has evolved to appreciate its surroundings, I perceive the world this way.

If the grandure of this Universe must be reduced to the limited concept of a creator, then I can imagine no greater than that which invokes the processes we have come to know as Nature: A purity of expression which surpasses by far, and at every level, all human expectation.

rosborne979 wrote:

Terry wrote:
rosborbe, I wouldn't have thought that you would be so lacking in imagination, or compassion.

And I'm surprised to see that you have such an anthropomorphic view of God.

To me, God and Nature are virtually the same thing, and I simply can't see a logical way to create a structure (Universe) which protects all its inhabitants from pain and death while still offering the full range of freedoms and challenges which make life so sweet. To me, there is a logical inconsistancy inherent in any living system (a Universe) which tries to be "perfect". The symmetry of the Universe is broken for a reason.

But even if I look at the problem your way, I still don't see where you would stop with solving people's problems for them. Would you kill all the worms and mosquitos which harm us, or would you simply make them harm some "lesser" creature? What about death, would you get rid of that as well? Is your God focused on Man as its baby, or on all things within creation? And what about the fact that animals need to consume life to survive, is that a systemic problem which needs fixing in your view? Or should all life just be plant life which subsists on energy from the Sun?

Do you think that it's even possible, given omnipotence and omniscience, to create a world in which all the "bad things" are removed and only the "good" (from who's perspective) remains?

Well done, Rosborne! I wish I could have expressed it as well as you have. I can't understand how anyone could interpret you statements in a negative context. If people are able to separate spirituality from nature, it's a trick I don't want to learn.

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truth
Coluber, I agree.

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rosborne979 wrote:

Please explain. How do you define "evil", and from who's perspective will you exact your judgement?

I define evil as causing unnecessary pain to other beings. I suspect that most evil is the result of biological drives running amuck. For instance, too much testosterone may contribute to rape, aggression and assault. Desire to hoard resources against future need is a necessary trait for survival, but greed taken to extremes harms others.

It would be great if all judgments were from my perspective :wink: , but I think that all sufficiently intelligent beings should be able to judge the effects of their actions on others. If only men and gods were rational

Derevon wrote:

In other words, you want a world without free will.

rosborne979 wrote:

And like Derevon says, doesn't a world without evil implicitly require the loss of free will.

CoastalRat wrote:

A perfect God could design a world without evil. It would not be too tough to do. But, in doing so, God would have deprived his creation of free will. His love for us entails allowing us the free will to do as we please. Some choose to have faith in God and reject evil out of love for him. Some reject God and also reject evil in order to live life with a clear conscience. Some reject God and embrace evil just because that is what they want to do. But God would not love us had he created us as robots without the free will to choose.

God could force us to be good (thus eliminating evil), but would we really enjoy life knowing we had no other choice, even if most would still choose to avoid evil?

Just once, I wish someone would think this platitude through before posting it. [sigh]

Yes, you can give people free will and myriad choices to make in life, without designing "evil" desires into them.

Who really has free will:

1. the man who is saddled with biological drives that compel him to harm others in the fulfillment of his needs even though he knows it is wrong, or

2. the man who is absolutely free to do anything he wants but simply lacks the compulsions that would cause him to rape, beat, kill or steal from anyone?

Why do you suppose that God made our brains susceptible to degradation by alcohol and various recreational drugs? Why is the wiring in some brains faulty? People who are mentally ill are not free. People whose brains are flooded with raging hormones are not free. People who have been raised under horrendous conditions or taught to believe lies are not free. People who have been enslaved are not free.

CoastalRat, why do you suppose that anyone would want to reject God and do evil, especially believing that God would punish them for all eternity, if their God-given brains did not process the available data in exactly the way they were designed to do and inevitably make that choice? Why do you suppose that God gave some people the ability to resist temptation, and others the weakness to give in?

And how is it fair that God allows evil men complete freedom to kill and control others, but their victims get no choices at all? You can't exercise free will if you are dead.

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Far from all evils in the world are results of biological drives. No one, despite these drives, is "forced", for example, to rape someone. Any mentally sane person who cares about others wouldn't do that, regardless of these. When imperfect beings with limited knowledge and wisdom are given free will, evil is an unavoidable consequence. It is true that people have the ability to abuse their free will to kill others, however, as free will, as I see it, belongs to the immortal spirit along with our consciousness, it is only the body they can kill. Again, life in the flesh is temporary, and not an end in itself.

If one sees physical life as a test of the spirit, then all the tribulations and temptations can make sense. The purpose of physical life simply isn't to live in an ideal environment of all love and good, where everything is perfect; that's what heaven is for. It isn't until we have to face misfortunes and tribulations that we can know how much we really love God. It is by living a life of love and good, despite all hardships, that we can grow spiritually in love and wisdom, so as to become more like our heavenly Father. "It's easy to be a saint in Paradise", somebody said.

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Derevon, why do you suppose that men rape, if not compelled by biological drives?

Agreed that sane and responsible people can control their urges, but why do you suppose that some people lack the ability to do so? Did they choose before birth to be shortchanged in mind or spirit so they could be tested beyond their capabilities? How can someone born "mentally challenged" be held accountable for their choices?

What kind of test is it if you are killed before you have a chance to learn to make wise decisions?

I have no desire to kill, steal, lie, fight, curse and am not biologically equipped to rape. If I am never tempted, how will God know whether I am "good" enough? Why do you suppose that most crimes are committed by men? Doesn't God care about the spiritual development of women?

Derevon wrote:

]It isn't until we have to face misfortunes and tribulations that we can know how much we really love God. It is by living a life of love and good, despite all hardships, that we can grow spiritually in love and wisdom, so as to become more like our heavenly Father. "It's easy to be a saint in Paradise", somebody said.

So what is the purpose of life in cultures where they don't know about your God and learn to worship multiple gods, nature spirits, or no gods at all? Why should anyone have to grow to be like God, instead of simply being created wise and good in the first place? Why do you suppose that God still has such an incredibly high failure rate in his products even though he has had millions of years to improve the design?

And how do you suppose that God himself could become wise and good if he had no tests and no one to judge his actions?

I'd rather be an untried saint in Paradise than have to live in a world where thousands of children die needlessly every day. If there is a God, his boundless cruelty is unfathomable.

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Good cod beats lousy god any day of the week, even Fridays.

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Terry wrote:

I define evil as causing unnecessary pain to other beings.

So, you feel that the worms and viruses you mentioned before are "evil" because they are causing unnecessary pain to others? And yet from their point of view, they are just doing what they do to survive. Likewise a lion that kills a cute little gazelle would be evil for hurting something, and yet it is only doing what it must to feed its kittens.

"Evil" is not an inherent condition of any life form, or any object. Evil is just a judgement which we apply to events and actions based on our subjective moral choices.

Like most people, I would ease suffering at any opportunity, and would do so based on my personal whims and judgements (if I had the power). But I'm just a person, not a God. I'm not so certain that a God would be able to, or desire to, limit its judgement along such biased lines.

I still think that you're anthropomophising the concept of God to a degree which limits the concept in such a way that I would no longer think of it as "God". And I think you're passing judgement from a very human perspective. But the original question did ask you "what sort of God you would like", so I can't complain.

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rosborne,

What do you make of a news item from many years ago involving a stampede and fatal crush at a "Christian Rally"...or indeed similar occurences which seem to occur annually at the Haj in Mecca ?

It seems to me that irrespective of a "non-interventionist" concept of "God" with respect to natural disasters or species competition, we might suppose that "communal worship" would be nurtured by a deity. Apparantly not !

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Terry wrote:

Derevon, why do you suppose that men rape, if not compelled by biological drives?

That's not what I'm saying. Of course rapists rape because of their biological drives. What I'm saying is that they wouldn't rape if they had any concern for the well-being of others.

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Agreed that sane and responsible people can control their urges, but why do you suppose that some people lack the ability to do so? Did they choose before birth to be shortchanged in mind or spirit so they could be tested beyond their capabilities? How can someone born "mentally challenged" be held accountable for their choices?

I can only speculate about what's going on in the mind of a rapist. I doubt, though, that anyone is really "forced" to rape someone, since such an act would require a lot of determination, which in its turn would require a total lack of concern for the victim. As for the "mentally challenged" who do not comprehend what they are doing, I do not believe that they can be held accountable for their actions. To sin is to deliberately do something that one perceives is evil.

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What kind of test is it if you are killed before you have a chance to learn to make wise decisions?

It sure would be a test for the parents anyway. The dead child in question may perhaps have opportunities to incarnate at a later time. Who knows.

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I have no desire to kill, steal, lie, fight, curse and am not biologically equipped to rape. If I am never tempted, how will God know whether I am "good" enough? Why do you suppose that most crimes are committed by men? Doesn't God care about the spiritual development of women?

All people have problems and obstacles in life to overcome. For example, in your case, one of them could perhaps be to overcome your doubts about God, and love him, despite all the miseries and tribulations in the world that haunt you and others. Of course God cares equally much about women and men. The challenges may simply vary in nature.

Derevon wrote:

It isn't until we have to face misfortunes and tribulations that we can know how much we really love God. It is by living a life of love and good, despite all hardships, that we can grow spiritually in love and wisdom, so as to become more like our heavenly Father. "It's easy to be a saint in Paradise", somebody said.

Terry wrote:

So what is the purpose of life in cultures where they don't know about your God and learn to worship multiple gods, nature spirits, or no gods at all? Why should anyone have to grow to be like God, instead of simply being created wise and good in the first place? Why do you suppose that God still has such an incredibly high failure rate in his products even though he has had millions of years to improve the design?

Those are good questions which are very difficult to answer from our current perspective. I don't know why we are created imperfect. Perhaps the experiencing and learning approach towards God is the very purpose of our existence. That's just a wild guess, though. I truly do not know.

I agree that Earth is a far worse place than it would have to be. I suppose it has to do with free will, and the fact that people are very much influenced by other people. Evil is, just as well as good, quite contagious. It could be argued that God could intervene and limit our free will to some degree, so as to get rid of the worst abominations (for all we know this could already be happening), but it's pretty much impossible for us from our limited perspective to see the wisdom in intervening, or not intervening, so we simply have to put our trust in that God does whatever is best for all of us, seen from his eternal perspective.

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And how do you suppose that God himself could become wise and good if he had no tests and no one to judge his actions?

God is uncreate and changeless, ultimate reality itself. How this can be is probably beyond human comprehension, though. We'll simply have to accept it.

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I'd rather be an untried saint in Paradise than have to live in a world where thousands of children die needlessly every day. If there is a God, his boundless cruelty is unfathomable.

For all we know, we may have chosen to be here, and who we are, of our own free will. We really can't be sure. One thing is for sure, though. We should do the best of our situation here on Earth, by doing good and acting from love.

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fresco wrote:

rosborne,

What do you make of a news item from many years ago involving a stampede and fatal crush at a "Christian Rally"...or indeed similar occurences which seem to occur annually at the Haj in Mecca ?

I find it very unfortunate that those members of society who are most enthusiastic and passionate are often driven by those very passions to congregate in such numbers as to place themselves at risk.

But I am not surprised by it. Becuase I don't expect Nature to alter itself to affect the outcome of events.

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fresco wrote:

rosborne,

What do you make of a news item from many years ago involving a stampede and fatal crush at a "Christian Rally"...or indeed similar occurences which seem to occur annually at the Haj in Mecca ?

It seems to me that irrespective of a "non-interventionist" concept of "God" with respect to natural disasters or species competition, we might suppose that "communal worship" would be nurtured by a deity. Apparantly not !

God lets the rain fall and the sun shine on righteous and iniquitous alike. He doesn't arbitrarily confer temporal special favours upon those who choose to do his will, no more than he calls down thunder and lightning upon the wicked to punish them.

Just and unjust, we are all the children of God. Those who are in evil and falsity he seeks to turn toward good and truth. Why would God, who is infinitely wise and just, want to bestow special favours which in themselves have nothing to do with Spirit upon a select group of his children? It wouldn't make any sense to me.

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Derevon wrote:

God lets the rain fall and the sun shine on righteous and iniquitous alike. He doesn't arbitrarily confer temporal special favours upon those who choose to do his will, no more than he calls down thunder and lightning upon the wicked to punish them.

This part makes sense to me because I could replace the word "God" with "Nature", and it still works.

Derevon wrote:

Just and unjust, we are all the children of God. Those who are in evil and falsity he seeks to turn toward good and truth.

This part doesn't make sense to me. In the first part, you suggested that God is neutral and passive, but in this part you suggest that it "seeks to turn toward good and truth". How does it seek? And which perspective on "good and truth" does it use in judgement.

And why would any infinite and omniscient entity "seek" anything. Seeking implies limits, and it should have none. The existence of anything which is Omnipotent and Omniscient which needs to take action in any form, is logically inconsistent. Any such being, given the desire to do so, would have taken any action it needed to take, long long ago.

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I think God needs to get us all on the same page, so that when I need to kill other people in suicide attacks I can be assured 72 virgins await me too.

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rosborne979 wrote:

This part doesn't make sense to me. In the first part, you suggested that God is neutral and passive, but in this part you suggest that it "seeks to turn toward good and truth". How does it seek? And which perspective on "good and truth" does it use in judgement.

nd why would any infinite and omniscient entity "seek" anything. Seeking implies limits, and it should have none. The existence of anything which is Omnipotent and Omniscient which needs to take action in any form, is logically inconsistent. Any such being, given the desire to do so, would have taken any action it needed to take, long long ago.

Good and truth from his own perspective, which is the only real one. What I meant was this: God is love. We have been given free will by God, and he doesn't override this free will. Although God himself is perfect, we aren't, and as love cannot be forced upon someone, God seeks to lead us away from evil and falsity, towards good and truth.

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Derevon wrote:

Good and truth from his own perspective, which is the only real one.

So does it follow then that Good and Truth from our perspective are irrelevant because they aren't from the real perspective?

Derevon wrote:

What I meant was this: God is love.

Love is an emotion. It neither thinks nor takes action. How can Love be God when you believe that God is a conscious entity.

Derevon wrote:

We have been given free will by God, and he doesn't override this free will. Although God himself is perfect, we aren't, and as love cannot be forced upon someone, God seeks to lead us away from evil and falsity, towards good and truth.

What does God do to lead us away from some things and toward other things? Does it lead by example? If so, what examples? And if we are incapable of knowing Good and Evil because only God's perspecitve matters, then how can we know which examples are good and which aren't?

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I'm not referring to natural/chemical love here, but to Divine Love. God is in his very "nature" Divine Love, and all such love proceeds from him. It is a totally unconditional and all-encompassing kind of love, very difficult to describe in words.

As for our own perceived good and truth it's spiritually irrelevant so long as it does not coincide with Divine Good and Truth. An act that may seem good, for example helping someone out, is not spiritually good in the slightest if there is a selfish purpose behind this act. Divine Good is good that springs from Divine Love. It's good for good itself, and not a means to an end.

As for how God leads us away from evil towards good is hard for us to comprehend from our very limited perspective, I suppose. I think God can influence our thinking, so long as we have at least some desire for good. God does not, out of respect of our free will, force us to think of good if we don't want to, but if there is some good in us, God could, I guess, inspire us with thoughts of such. This is just a hypothesis I have, though.

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And if we are incapable of knowing Good and Evil because only God's perspecitve matters, then how can we know which examples are good and which aren't?

Through conscience, reason/wisdom and scripture we can normally separate between good and evil. It's not so hard to understand that an act that is from love and wisdom is an act of good. Sometimes we may err due to limited wisdom, but the important thing from the spiritual point of view is always the intention. Ultimately everything comes down to intentions. If we truly desire to be lead by God, and do our best to live in accordance with his will, he can guide us step by step, closer and closer towards him.

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If God is love, then there isn't a 'He' or conscious entity; love could I suppose be a force or general sweep towards goodness, but in ourlives it would be better just to SAY love rather than God. Then we would apply Occam's razor and since love exists, we don't need to prove that God exists, because 'He' isn't necessary. Just believe in Love. (And it gets a capital L when you believe in it!)

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Divine Love is something that can only exist between sentient beings of free will and consciousness. If God was impersonal, it wouldn't be possible to Love God, and "it" wouldn't be able to love us either. God is absolutely necessary for Love. It is from him all Divine Love originates, and not from ourselves.

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What sort of "God" would you like ?

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