What sort of "God" would you like ?

And I'm surprised to see that you have such an anthropomorphic view of God.

To me, God and Nature are virtually the same thing, and I simply can't see a logical way to create a structure (Universe) which protects all its inhabitants from pain and death while still offering the full range of freedoms and challenges which make life so sweet. To me, there is a logical inconsistancy inherent in any living system (a Universe) which tries to be "perfect". The symmetry of the Universe is broken for a reason.

But even if I look at the problem your way, I still don't see where you would stop with solving people's problems for them. Would you kill all the worms and mosquitos which harm us, or would you simply make them harm some "lesser" creature? What about death, would you get rid of that as well? Is your God focused on Man as its baby, or on all things within creation? And what about the fact that animals need to consume life to survive, is that a systemic problem which needs fixing in your view? Or should all life just be plant life which subsists on energy from the Sun?

Do you think that it's even possible, given omnipotence and omniscience, to create a world in which all the "bad things" are removed and only the "good" (from who's perspective) remains?

For me God gives me the opportunity to change the world. Lessons for right living with the free will to exercise those lessions to the best of my ability on any given day. Sometimes I do better than other times but God for me is the home base where I go to find the answers and get back on the track when I'm off. One of the things I like about God is that God doesn't move...I move. So when I can't feel God's presence I know I have to move back into his path. That is where he will be. He always is:)

The question is "what sort of God would I like?" Well, in truth I would like for God to give me a little less freedom to screw up and be more like Santa Claus. He simply refuses to conform to my will, however.

Rosborne, if there is no God and life in the universe has simply evolved, parasites are logically consistent. If there is a niche to fill, some life form will exploit it no matter what the cost to other species.

It may not be possible to design a world without things that are "bad" from someone's perspective, but it is possible to design a world without evil. And that's what I would expect of a perfect God.

I would cheerfully exterminate smallpox, parasitic worms, malaria, viruses and any other parasitic species whose existence torments us and benefits no other species. I would not exterminate mosquitoes (just the diseases they transmit) since other species depend on them for food. Flies serve a purpose (but they would not be allowed to torment living animals) as do predators.

Yes, there would still be death, but it would be quick and relatively painless. A good God would have designed bodies to function perfectly until they gave out all at once, like the wonderful one-hoss shay.

In other words, you want a world without free will.

Free will ain't such a bad thing
My difficulty with it has been whether or not my spiritual foundation remains strong enough to do good things with that gift. I have been doing "The Purpose Driven Life". May not be everyone's cup of tea, but it is certainly helping me more clearly define my choices and to see my patterns.

I am learning more and more that free will is important to me here on earth. It gives me the opportunity to live out my ideals and to ponder the purpose when things don't go the way I planned.

Having free will also allows me to take the blessings as I notice them out into the world. And the more I take them out there and share them the more contented and peaceful I become.

I think free will is about action. And also about consequences of those actions. I have a spiritual foundation that acts as a blueprint for exercising my will. Sometimes I act like a renegade carpenter, ignoring the blueprint and I always see the results...just like I do when I follow the good, orderly direction which has always been there for me. My choice...my consequences...my life.

Deb

Please explain. How do you define "evil", and from who's perspective will you exact your judgement?



And like Derevon says, doesn't a world without evil implicitly require the loss of free will.

A perfect God could design a world without evil. It would not be too tough to do. But, in doing so, God would have deprived his creation of free will. His love for us entails allowing us the free will to do as we please. Some choose to have faith in God and reject evil out of love for him. Some reject God and also reject evil in order to live life with a clear conscience. Some reject God and embrace evil just because that is what they want to do. But God would not love us had he created us as robots without the free will to choose.

I know a great way of putting it. Just thought of this (I am so brilliant sometimes). When I force my wife to go out to a movie she is not wanting to see, she has a way of making the experience miserable for both of us. But when she chooses to see a movie with me that she does not really want to see but goes to it because she knows I want to see it, we both normally have a really good time.

God could force us to be good (thus eliminating evil), but would we really enjoy life knowing we had no other choice, even if most would still choose to avoid evil? Hmmm??

Oh, and in regard to the topic, What kind of God would I like? I think I will keep the one I have. I would like to see less suffering in the world, but for the most part that is our fault, not God's.

CoastalRat

An eloquent response indeed !

Although this is not a debate on "free will" I don't think we can define it as a choice between "right" and "wrong". If that were so then I would argue that your "God's apparent actions" in creating natural distasters and consequential suffering of the inocents is presumably HIS "wrong" exercise of HIS "free will".

Sorry, this "loving God" sounds to me like an absentee landlord who gives many of his tenants the "freedom" to live in a condemned dwelling. Of course deprivation can lead to depravity....but maybe he's not wise enough to realize that !

I don't think God DOES any of this stuff that happens in the world. For me God is not about doing stuff...He is about spiritual food and purpose for life.

I don't think God gives people cancer, I don't think He gives us crappy relationships that break our hearts. I don't think he causes typhoons and natural disasters. They are just that..natural disasters.

War is about free will, I think. I have been listening to God in meditation for some time now and fighting has never been a solution He has shared with me for any problem I have enver encountered in relationship.

God doesn't come to us unless we ask. We go to Him. I think that is what a loving God is all about...a place to go where I can connect to His spirit in me.

Deborah B.

Alas "God as a purpose" was no doubt the inspiration of many barbaric acts including 9/11.

We all want to know what we are "doing here" but history teaches us to beware the one with the answer to that.

I would like the kind that will love me and let me into heaven without attaching conditions to it.

And one who would not let me lose my hair ever.

I actually meant for my personal purpose. And my personal purpose has nothing to do with acts against others.

Deborah B.

Point taken - but there is a strong argument for the concepts of "self" and "purpose" to have meaning only in social terms since there are acquired through socialization via language. Even that "meditation" is often a "conversation" between self1 and self2 etc. ("Where the self is, truth is not"...Krishnamurti reference above)

That has not been my experience with meditation. Perhaps at first, but certainly not now. And perhaps people find purpose on different levels. I am seeking something deeper than how I am socilaized...actually the way I was socialized is what prompted me to look further.

truth
Oops! I was going to offer an answer. But nevermind. I might suggest, however, that our make-believe God has both given us the ability to invent the notion of Evil and the ability to see through it. The ideal God would be one who creates a world in which all of Her creatures can become enlightened (through Science, Philosophy, and Mystical practice). And I think that's what we have--it's just not a fun place to be all the time. That's a problem only for children, however.

Deborah

If you are advocating "spirituality" without the need for "divinity" then I can agree with you.

I only know my experience

Re: truth


Have you read 'His Dark Materials' by Philip Pullman, which is one of Britain's top 5 books (actually a trilogy)? In them, the forces of enlightenment, science and knowledge battle against the old notion of God as dictator, man-made religion, authority, prohibition... a very enlightened view of what God is all about, and a good read to boot.