The Hard Facts!

[I hope youve only taken a breath and have not stopped there.Weve got a nation so divided by issues of wealth and morals. Weve got an admin that is totally obsessed with getting in our personal spaces, like rights of assembly, speech, birth control, . Yet we see that the curtailments of our accepted freedoms doesnt seem to have an end. Weve got an entire power base thats basing its continuity on deception, control, and intimidation.
Our old folks are finding that , in order to best prepare for their later years, death is the only reasonable alternative. and i know Im overlooking other big ones

Somebody else talk about the rise of sectarian science

The only encouraging news is that Spanish voters have all-too-tragically discovered the dangers inherent in supporting the Bush Administration's policies, by throwing out the Spanish politicians responsible.

It is to be hoped that 6 million Hispanic-American voters will also have learned the lessons.

The cycles of history repeat themselves over and over. The push to control and contain is followed by the shove of rejection and denouncment. You can't stop the future, and it is the same as the past.

Spain is a big indicator that people are getting fed up with fallacious and mendacious leadership seeking to increase its own powers at our expense. God only knows how many time the people have been oppressed by a minority elite that gets run out of power by the people who have had enough.

The human race just can't seem to get across the bridge and find the land of maturity and reason. They are too bent on burning all the villages that stand in the way, or else they are too obsessed with gaining control over all the villages before approaching the bridge, which of corse, is in tatters and unserviceable by the time they attempt to cross it.

Ruins covered by sand. That is our fate, unless we finally decide to put childish games away for good.

That shows you how people can look at the same set of facts and differ about the conclusions. I would have thought that the bombers were responsible for the bombing, not the Bush administration, and that the bombers' demonstration of their evil nature showed that we have been right to actively oppose them, and the Spanish have been right to help us.

Brandon, until Bush introduced his terrorist-creating policies around the Middle East, the rare bombs were mostly the work of minor locally-based terrorists.

Thousands of innocent deaths resulting from illegal wars and invasions have guaranteed hatred and, in some cases, retaliation by the families and friends of the victims.

I repeat, the bombers are responsible for the bombing, and the nature of the act demonstrates unmistakably that the perpetrators are very evil people who need to be actively opposed in the world.

Since the President and Administration authorized carpet bombings in Afghanistan and Iraq, your description of them is most fitting.

You're merely playing with words to obfuscate the logic. The people, apparently Al Qaeda, who bombed the train station, are responsible for the deaths at the train station. Their act, aimed as it was at civilians as the primary, intented targets, demonstrates beyond doubt that they are extremely evil and that, therefore, we were absolutely correct to aggressively oppose them and that Spain was right to help.

Also, I am not sure I understand why you believe that a demon icon adds to the credibility of your logic.

Brandon, are you claiming our bombs are nice kind friendly weapons which only kill the guilty, whereas those of Al Qaeda are nasty evil ones which kill only the innocent?

If you believe that, you should be working for George W.

I should think two things are incredibly obvious:

1) I am claiming that the persons responsible for the deaths in Spain are the bombers, and that their bombing of civilians as the intended target demonstrates that they are just the sort of people who need to be actively fought in the world.
2) There is a distinction between our bombing of military and governmental targets in which some bystander deaths result, and their deliberate aiming at at civilians to produce terror.

Just wanted to put in my two or three cents worth: History does not "repeat itself." It is not cyclical. All of what we are derives from what we were, and no two events are identical. Read my "electronic signature."

Brandon, you may consider twenty thousand innocent deaths and tens of thousands more bystanders disabled-for-life or injured by our bombs as reasonable casualties of our actions.

I am unsure how many of the survivors or their families would agree with you?

Surely both invasions made acts of revenge and retaliation against America and allies certainties?

People have been making war since the dawn of our species, and probably before. This is hardly some wild aberration of Bush's. The fact is that sometimes, regrettably, certain people must be opposed by force.

I will ask you now directly whether you consider a group that aims at military and government targets, but unavoidably sometimes hits bystanders, as being morally equivalent to a group that specifically attempts to murder bystanders, including children.

The fact that Al Qaeda has apparently murdered 200 civilians deliberately, and wounded many more, demonstrates clearly that they we are right to actively oppose them, and that Spain was right to help us.

Brandon, most human beings with some sense of morality oppose all terrorism, be such atrocities carried-out by the self-appointed or those granted power by a Supreme Court.

Well, I note in passing that you avoided answering my very simple question to you. If, by "those granted power by a Supreme Court," you mean to refer to the war in Iraq, then I would say that terrorism means an attack aimed at non-combatants, and that the war in Iraq, since attacks were aimed at military and governmental targets, was not terrorism. Or do you believe that all wars satisfy some unstated definition of terrorism?

Brandon, I have no confidence in the policies of terrorists who declare their 'official' objectives as combatants, but kill and maim unlimited numbers of non-combatants achieving their objectives.

Politics, War, Terrorism, & Domestic Issues
I've made posts here in this thread before concerning some of the Issues that now seem to be gaining interest, but at that time, no one particularly had a decent opinion about anything, except their views that weren't even real issues until someone finally spoke the truth, but yet the truth seems to be trying to be downtroden... I've waited & watched patiently to see what, if any, particular issues that the American people or any other Country's people would try to decipher... I've now got a sense of what's really got folks up in arms about, & for that I'm pleased, but, I'd really like to know 1 thing concerning the most recent posts... Ain't it amazing how everyone seems to have different opinions on everything concerning the war on Terror, but when the issue comes to light, for all to see the difference of opinions, the opinions that get the most responses are the facts, & the facts speak for themselves???

I've given much thought to the current Administration, & as we used to say many years ago: "The Establishment Sucks"!!! I've been a registered Democrat ever since I turned 18 years old, & twice I left my party & voted Republican, & that was during the Reagan years. Never ever again, if I can help it will I ever leave my party again!!! I've seen what nearly 4 years of the Bush Administration has done for this Country, & I don't like it, nor do I appreciate it!!! Now, for all y'all "die-hard Republicans" out there, don't go ballistic here, el-Presidente' has already done that for you! During the first go around, (2000), w/the Bush's trying to gain control of the White House yet again, this sitting President campaigned on "strengthening our Military to fight & win War"... He made no bones about it. But here's the kicker: He didn't have "time" to strengthen it, only to jump right in w/both feet & declare it! #1 however, I do believe that the War in Afghanistan should've been finished, & bin-Laden in custody, BEFORE going into another Country w/our Troops from all Branches, plus many Reserves & National Guardsman, to Iraq... Iraq didn't attack us on 09-11-2001, the Afghanistan Terrorist's did! What purpose, other than many lives lost in what should've been on the table a little longer, has that served??? And, what's up w/telling your enemy you're coming & giving them ultimatums??? The reason I ask this is because our Troops, along w/ Troops from other Countries, our Allies, etc., have had the duty called of them to try to liberate them, (the Iraqi's), from a rude, crude, & socially unacceptable individual as Saddam Hussein, thrown right back in our Troops' faces by Suicide Bombers, Mines all around the Desert, RPG's, Missiles, Drive by's, & many more that I feel confident none of us know about, as it should be! For Heaven's sake! How much more of a reality check does this current Administration need before it realizes that you cannot free, those that do not desire to be freed of the tyranny?! Yesterday, 03-17-2004, Baghdad once again got another dose of Terror themselves, & automatically Al-Quada comes to so very many minds, as well it should, but what about the Iraqi people that do not want liberating? When American & Coalition Troops arrived on the scene of that deadly blast, these same Troops were shoved to the side, the Iraqi's did not want our help, they wanted to tend to their own. Is that not good enough w/in itself to put the Bush Administration on notice that his illustrious "plan" is not working??? Yes, w/Hussein in captivity, he's known of his location 24/7, but are folks really stupid or blind enough, that they cannot see past their noses that he still is calling a lot of the shots, & has some help in very strange places indeed??? And, I'd still like to know where bin-Laden is at!!! That Terrorist group alone took thousands of lives on 09-11-2001, & the World as we knew it changed upon that day. But, did the Bush Administration do the same thing there that's now one of the key issues concerning Iraq? That being a "follow-up plan" of how to turn the Government over to their own people!!! He couldn't stay focused long enough on Afghanistan to finish what he started there, & most likely never will, just like he cannot finish what he didn't think about to begin w/, & that being able to decide how to take care of HOME first & foremost!!! No, he couldn't & he never will, he hasn't got the experience of a Leader, much less a President, for he's done nothing but stir up hate & discontent around the World, cause Countries to choose sides, thus "Divide & Conquer", & tend to Domestic Issues such as Healthcare, Schools, the Drug War, the poor & needy that can't even afford good or even qualified Medical care, & that's just the few right off the top of my head to speak of! What about our Disabled people of this Country? Does anyone have a fact that they can present, & know it's the truth, to the effect of taking care of those as well??? No, & neither does this sitting President... He knows how to take care of the rich though, (keep them rich & get them richer, & they "Owe it all to Him")!!! Hogwash! If the rich are so damn proud of their illustrious leader, then they do make good bed-fellows indeed!

As far as what Spain has done to their own Country, well, now it's their turn to deal w/a Socialist Party, that will cut their throats in more ways than one, but for now, the majority has ruled there, it's a shame that the majority cannot win an Election in the United States, but we have the Electoral Votes to do that for us, yet there are so very many people that don't understand that process, & I personally, have just about given up trying to explain how that works to so very many people, but I will keep trying, for people need to know why "their" Votes didn't or won't count... But, in regards to Spain, does anyone believe that a Terrorist group other than Al-Quada had a plan for that??? I don't, look what's happening all around the World, & why? To split up the Allied Forces of this World, so they can "rule" as they wish... That's this writer's opinion at any rate. Spain will do as they wish, unless the Bush Administration can sneak in the back-door & slip them enough U.S. Dollars to not attack us, or anyone else for that fact. All they have really done for themselves is open up an "open door policy" for Terrorist groups to come on in & make theirselves at home in Spain now! They're already there, just as they are still right here in the U.S. as well, & everywhere they "desire" to take up residence & "blend in", & then what? Yep, you got it, another major scale attack! It will happen again, this I have no doubts about, but w/Spain now on their side, there's another situation brewing all by itself, time will prove that... Sad indeed...

I could sit here all day & give you folks facts, just like you can give me yours, but until the American people stand up & take notice, we're on a highway headed to Hell w/the Bush Administration at the wheel!!! That's a scary thought indeed!!! I leave you w/this final thought for now: Do you, as American Citizen want to watch this Country go downhill for another 4 years? Do you want to continuously watch American jobs going abroad, & people from other Countries come here to work for cheaper Labor, while the American dream just got shot down in it's tracks? Do you want this Country to keep on losing lives in Wars that don't even concern us? Would you like to see a change in the way Americans are being treated? The questions are many, the answers are few, at least from Washington D.C. anyway...

Have a Good Day & Think About It!!!
Patt :wink:

Terrorism
Bombing of trains containing civilians is an act of terrorism. Those that did so are terrorists.

Spain having troops in Iraq is not aiding in the fighting of terrorists. It is aiding an illegal Occupation and indirectly supporting an illegal invasion of a sovereign country.

1.Is the attack on the USS Cole an act of terrorism?
2. Is the bombing of a US Embassy an act of terrorism?
3. Is the bombing of Marine Barracks an act of terrorism?
4. Is a rocket attack on a civilian neiborhood an act of terrorism?
5. Is shooting down a Military helicopter an act of terrorism?
6. Is blowing up Military vehicles an act of terrorism?

pistoff, I agree w/you, & the answers to all of your questions are yes, a resounding YES!!! Thank you for summing that up...

Have a Good 'Un!!!
Patt