I guess I am a fake atheist.

I don't think so. We are conditioned to the silent atheist. Like the days when a favored black adult was considered a "good boy." The minute atheists speak out we hear this militant atheist flap. When anybody else speaks out for something it is taken in stride.

A spokesperson like Carl Sagan? Carl Sagan is said to have replied to someone pushing for an intuitive answer that Sagan wasn't prepared to give, “I prefer not to think with my gut.” Yet Sagan is the man who said, “The universe is all that has ever existed or will ever exist.” Thinking with his gut made Sagan a strong believer in the now discredited and refuted Steady State model of cosmology. Sagan claimed that the universe is all that has ever existed just as though that was something more than wishful thinking, or more precisely, just as though it was something other than drawing a conclusion directly from his gut.

I don't see how Sagan would be any better than the rest of the clowns who've been pushing their own neo Stalinist agenda.

" neo Stalinist agenda"

That's some bad **** to be laying out.

I thumbed you up on that, and I see your take on conditioning. On the other hand, I don't give a damn.

I get the irony.

Normally, I also don't give a damn, but there is something in the wind these days. So much posturing and clubbing down of common sense on too many levels.

Yeah, but what is this twerp thing with all these knock off and irrelevant ideas.

Certainly nothing new about that.

I am not sure I follow your thinking on that question.

Well, I see nothing the matter with militant atheists trying to convince the world they're right about the non-existence of God. If they think their view is good for the world they have a moral duty to make it understood, surely? That's what I got out of Nietzsche: bend the worldview to suit your own vision...

(The more I mull it over, the less I even consider myself a "weak atheist" at this point. But I used to be as militant as atheists come, so I understand the militant point of view.)

I'm not surprised. People routinely claim to have one thought process and then behave counter to what you would expect of their claim.

For example, there are many Christians who misuse the word "christian" too. Christians accuse each other of not being very christian all the time, and I rarely even hear them agree on what it is to be christian.

Human language doesn't lend itself to precision. It's more of an artistic endeavor like music. Mathematics is precise, but difficult to express many concepts. Unfortunately there is nothing that combines the two. People live in a world of ambiguity, we need it. It allows us to react quickly in most communication while sacrificing the precision which is desired in some.

I explain badly, that's my way - but Max's thread is about some group that throws bullets about other stuff of their own interests, unrelated to the question of theism.

True. What has gay marriage and gun control to do with the fact of being atheist? To join such a group, you have to not just be atheist, but also subscribe to a certain vision more likely to be bonding, a political/social view.

Nods.

My dog relieves himself, but he's never taken blood thinner, though

Edgar, how is a simple lack of belief in something comparable to the African-American experience? We are still saying that "atheism" is a simple lack of belief in God, right? Do you really think it is appropriate to compare atheism to an ethnicity?

And What exactly do you mean by "speak out"? Confronting other peoples beliefs causes conflict. Confrontational Christian leaders are met with as much opposition and disdain as confrontational Atheists like Richard Dawkins. Dawkins et al. are going after people's beliefs and attacking any public display of religion. This is their right, but people fighting back is at least understandable.

When you get into peoples face about their beliefs you can expect to fight back whether you are an atheist or not.

As an atheist, I don't think the persecution complex is warranted. It is not fair for anyone to throw punches and then complain when they get hit back.

Those of us atheists who are tolerant of other people's beliefs don't seem to have a problem.

I see you are off in your own room.

No Osso. We are legion.

I in no way equated atheism with the black American experience. Period. I used an analogy for the one specific point.

Speak out: make one's mind known in relation to a specific point or situation.

I don't care if they speak out against religion.

I have had the religious in my face all of my life. It is a two way street.

If you lived in some modern societies you would face execution for being a known atheist.

Don't even start lecturing me on atheism, Max, however much you like to engage.

You started this thread about some subset of talkative atheists who gathered together to fix the world.

Don't ******* put that on the rest of us, whether we are simple non believers or aggressive no godders.

Who is it you think I am?