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WWoman fired for being too attractive. That's OK, court says

 
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Sun 23 Dec, 2012 09:21 am
@chai2,
You still haven't read the court case, have you Chai. This is not at all what the court ruled.

The courts are supposed to make rulings based the facts and the law, not on mob hysteria.
0 Replies
 
IRFRANK
 
  2  
Sun 23 Dec, 2012 09:24 am
@BillRM,
Several of the comments here are correct, AFAIK, in a legal sense. So I think the woman had no legal case for her dismissal. But, I do think she had a civil case for damages after years of satisfactory employment and the Dr. suddenly decides it is not in 'his' best interest to keep her around, for non work related reasons. Especially if he replaced her with a less attractive person soon after her dismissal.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Sun 23 Dec, 2012 09:32 am
@IRFRANK,
We don't know the other side of the story Frank. The court only considered her allegations.

There was very clearly sexual banter between them. She got to pick the quotes (i.e. the bulge quote) that were part of the record that made him look the worst, but very clearly she wasn't offended by them given the fact they were exchanging personal texts afterwords. Very likely there was a consensual flirtatious relationship. She entered out of context remarks that made him look bad as part of the court case. We didn't hear what she said in these exchanges.

I don't know how you think a "civil case" would be different. This was a civil case for damages, wasn't it?

This woman is not an innocent victim. She would have had trouble winning any case especially if the other side had a chance to make their case.
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  2  
Sun 23 Dec, 2012 09:38 am
@IRFRANK,
But, who is to say that the replacement is LESS attractive?

Less attractive to whom? The dentist? The wife? The world at large? A2K members?

We've had posters here saying the woman looks like a man, that she's not someone elses type.

What if the woman hired to replace is a former Ms Universe, but her looks don't arouse the dentists penis, or make the wife jealous?

This, to me has nothing to do with the woman's physical appearance, but the 2 facts that the dentist found someone so irrisistable he "could not control himself" and that the wife "ordered" him to punish the object of his lack of control, and cause her to loose her job.

This is so much like having women cover their hair, because men just simply cannot be held accountable for their actions when visually exposed to the hair of a womans head.

maxdancona
 
  0  
Sun 23 Dec, 2012 09:43 am
@chai2,
Chai.

Read the court case.

What you are saying has nothing to do with the actual decision we are discussing. You are making up a story and then getting all worked up about it. This was not an innocent woman getting victimized by the man.

This woman's behavior got her into trouble. The employer wasn't innocent either, but this is not the poor victimized woman minding her own business story that you want it to be.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  2  
Sun 23 Dec, 2012 09:46 am
@Lustig Andrei,
So they basically said, too bad for you that you worked for an asshole.

ehBeth
 
  1  
Sun 23 Dec, 2012 10:07 am
@chai2,
chai2 wrote:
The fact that the wife ordered him to punish someone else because of his inability to be professional in the workplace, is key.


I think it's an opportunity for a number of civil lawsuits - against the dentist, his wife and their pastor.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Sun 23 Dec, 2012 10:09 am
@Lustig Andrei,
Lustig Andrei wrote:
The bombshell ruling came after Melissa Nelson, 32, sued her boss of 10 years, Dr. James Knight, for gender discrimination.


she (her counsel) picked the wrong thing to sue for

she's got two more kicks at the can (wife/pastor) at least
maxdancona
 
  0  
Sun 23 Dec, 2012 10:10 am
@ehBeth,
What should she have sued for?

And, by that question I am looking for a legal basis for her to seek damages (not a vague outraged sense of injustice).
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Sun 23 Dec, 2012 10:11 am
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

So they basically said, too bad for you that you worked for an asshole.


good thing the local community knows about his problems with tight pants - I wouldn't recommend that any female attend his practice
maxdancona
 
  0  
Sun 23 Dec, 2012 10:14 am
@ehBeth,
And what makes you think that quote wasn't taken out of context. There is no evidence that she took offense to it, it it seems possible that it was part of a more general sexual banter between them.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  3  
Sun 23 Dec, 2012 10:26 am
@ehBeth,
I agree, and I'd extend that suggestion to men as well. I don't want an asshole sticking his hands in my mouth.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Sun 23 Dec, 2012 10:32 am
@DrewDad,
I agree. I prefer to go to a Dentist that is willing to hire irresistibly hot assistants. We should find out where this woman ended up working.
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  2  
Sun 23 Dec, 2012 10:33 am
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

chai2 wrote:
The fact that the wife ordered him to punish someone else because of his inability to be professional in the workplace, is key.


I think it's an opportunity for a number of civil lawsuits - against the dentist, his wife and their pastor.


Oh yeah, let's not forget the pastor.

What an opportunity here.

I wonder what kind of advice this man of god has been giving to the rest of his flock.

maxdancona
 
  0  
Sun 23 Dec, 2012 10:57 am
@chai2,
You can't just go around suing people with no legally valid reason (as much as Americans love to try).

If you are going to sue someone, you must have a legal charge. The obvious legal wrong in this case is "gender discrimination". This was their best shot, they tried it and it failed.

So please, people who think there is a legal case here; what is the charge you would propose?

0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Sun 23 Dec, 2012 10:57 am
@chai2,
@all
Seems to me it was a mutual thing, until he decided he could no longer control the situation. Possibly they were so tangled emotionally he saw no other out.
Mame
 
  2  
Sun 23 Dec, 2012 11:24 am
@edgarblythe,
Yes, that's how I see it. I think they were both unprofessional in their texting and comments to each other and if he or his wife (and pastor) thought it might escalate, laying her off or firing her would be the logical course of action - remove the temptation and you don't have a problem. His marriage is certainly more important to him, the employer, than her, the employee. I don't see any discrimination here at all.
Lustig Andrei
 
  2  
Sun 23 Dec, 2012 11:51 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Lustig,

Did you read the decision yourself, or are you making your judgement based on the sensationalistic news accounts?

It seems to me to be a reasonable decision in spite of the fact it makes a good headline.


uh...what judgement am I supposed to be making, max?
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  3  
Sun 23 Dec, 2012 12:18 pm
@Mame,
edgar/mame

Where is it indicating anywhere that anything was mutual?
Any sexual comments made at we can read were totally from the dentist.

Remove the temptation and you don't have a problem?

Then perhaps the dentist should have a lobotomy so he no longer has tempting thoughts. It's his thoughts that were tempting him, and apparantly he can't control them.

If you're a pickpocket, let's cut off both your hands so you can't be tempted to steal.


As far a her dress, Ms Nelson states.....“I wore a long-sleeve or short-sleeve T-shirt and I wore scrubs,” Nelson said, adding that she’s “happily married.”

That's what dental hygenists wear on the job.....T-shirts and/or scrubs. If one person who wears scrubs runs 20 miles a week and has a healthy life style, it's a safe bet they are going to look "better" than someone who is medically overweight, doesn't exercise or eat right.

If she looked good in her scrubs because she is healthy, is she to be punished because she takes care of herself?

The dentist was the one who made comments about the bulges in his pants, questioned her about her orgasms, and "he quipped about her irregular sex life, saying it was “like having a Lamborghini in the garage and never driving it.”

In the other thread, the linked article states

Six months before Nelson was fired, she and her boss began exchanging text messages about work and personal matters, such as updates about each of their children's activities, the justices wrote.
The messages were mostly mundane, but Nelson recalled one text she received from her boss asking "how often she experienced an orgasm."
Nelson did not respond to the text and never indicated that she was uncomfortable with Knight's question, according to court documents.


Personal matters such as their children's activities.

In my opinion, where it says Nelson did not respond to the orgasm text it might better read "BUT" never indicated she was uncomfortable, not "and" never indicated she was uncomfortable.

From what is presented, which is all we can know, the sexual comments were all on the part of the employer.

It's unfortunate Ms. Nelson did not immediately say she was uncomfortable with him, and in a perfect world she would have. She honestly should have told him, even once she was uncomfortable, and it would have made all the difference in the world to this case.

I don't see anything anywhere that indicates anything was mutual.

In a perfectly rational world, we would all constantly be on our toes, ready to tell someone when they were stepping over a boundary. We would always be on the ready alert when someone makes a comment, regardless of whatever else we were doing/thinking at that moment.

She was wrong for not telling him upfront to stop. No excuse for that. However, I know that people simply don't do that every time they feel offended. In fact, in normal interactions, it's wise not to jump on every thing that's said to us that we don't agree with.

It's nice to think that someone would immediately say "don't say that", it's another thing living in the real world working side by side with someone that might be in her mind maybe weird and inappropriate, but no real danger.

She may have been apprehensive about saying something, not wanting to offend, afraid for her job, thinking it might just stir the pot more, that it would get the wife involved (too late), any number of reasons.
Of course there's no evidence for this, but neither is there any information available from here that indicates she did anything to encourage him with words/actions of her own.

If I'm missing something somewhere that indicates she encouraged him, or contributed to inappropriate conversations, please point it out.

He was her employer, in a position of power.

That last sentence reminds me of someone who used to post here. He featured himself to be the savior of abused women, birds with broken wings. Yet, in one thread he openly commented how when he was moving around the kitchen at his business, he sometimes rubbed "accidently" up against their boobs, and he apparently thought this was pretty cool, since it was his belief that maybe they were standing in such a way to allow this to happen, and in any event, they never complained. This was all ok of course because they were all over 18, and hey, they never complained.

He became enraged when I said that was pretty gross, which I still believe it is. But, he was in a position of power, just like this dentist.

I think this dentist is gross, knew he was being inappropriate, and don't see anything anywhere that indicates Ms. Nelson was participating, but rather, just letting things slide, which, in hindsight she shouldn't have.

hawkeye10
 
  2  
Sun 23 Dec, 2012 12:41 pm
@chai2,
Quote:
That last sentence reminds me of someone who used to post here. He featured himself to be the savior of abused women, birds with broken wings. Yet, in one thread he openly commented how when he was moving around the kitchen at his business, he sometimes rubbed "accidently" up against their boobs, and he apparently thought this was pretty cool, since it was his belief that maybe they were standing in such a way to allow this to happen, and in any event, they never complained. This was all ok of course because they were all over 18, and hey, they never complained.

He became enraged when I said that was pretty gross, which I still believe it is. But, he was in a position of power, just like this dentist

he also it appeared actively killed his business because he could not deal with the flirting between the bartenders and the customers, so he outlawed it thus driving customers and good bartenders away. it is sad when owners erotic problems get in the way of business, and it has here again.
 

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