45
   

How can something come from nothing?

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jul, 2014 02:37 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

I'm gonna get off your merry-go-round. It's useless!


Then why did you start it in the first place?

And since you were making assertions about what you do with regard to mistakes and errors (acknowledge the errors; thank the person who called the error to your attention; and apologize)...and suggesting that I do not do it...

...why are you running away from it?

There is no real merry-go-round. That comment seems to be only so that you can have an excuse for running away.

You can show that you actually do those things...that you acknowledge the errors or mistakes; you thank the person who called htem to your attention; and you apologize for doing them.

Here is an example of me doing all those things:

http://able2know.org/topic/245592-3#post-5673345

I thanked Lash for calling something inappropriate I did to my attention.

I acknowledged that it was inappropriate...that it was wrong on my part.

And I apologized.


So...just show me one post of yours where you did those things...or are you now suggesting that in none of the 90,000 posts have you ever made a mistake or error or said something inappropriate?

I've got more if you want to see them. Your characterization of me that suggests I am someone who never acknowledges being wrong is itself totally wrong.

And as for the "me, me, me"...ci, you talk about yourself and your exploits much, much, much, much more often than I.



cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jul, 2014 03:53 pm
@Frank Apisa,
It's not that I started anything. You grab onto anything, and get people on merry-go-rounds that are endless repetitions of the same "I don't knows."
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Tue 1 Jul, 2014 04:11 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

It's not that I started anything. You grab onto anything, and get people on merry-go-rounds that are endless repetitions of the same "I don't knows."


You DID start something, ci.

Here is a link:

http://able2know.org/topic/204039-25#post-5704950

It was something that came out of nowhere...for no reason at all. And this was after I attempted to mend whatever the hell it is that is bothering you so...by suggesting a meet when you get to New York. You discarded all that...in order to take a completely unnecessary swipe at me...and to make a false accusation about me.

You essentially accused me of being unwilling to acknowledge mistakes and errors...and to apologize for them.

I have now posted a link to where I did acknowledge in exact conformity with what you said you did (as opposed to what you said I do)...I acknowledged the mistake; thanked the person calling it to my attention; and apologized.

Give a link to one of your 90,000 posts where you do the same, ci.

I don't think you can do it.

But you can make a start here.

You were wrong to start this thing...you were wrong to suggest that I do not acknowledge errors or apologize for them.

So all you have to do is to man up...and acknowledge that you were wrong; thank the person who pointed out to you that you were wrong (moi)...and apologize.

Do you have it in you?
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jul, 2014 08:25 am
As it seams needed lets go on with the wave of simple things a la Jacques de la Palice style to assert today:

"Coming from" requires something to come from with.
To come from nothing is to not come at all, its to just be.
0 Replies
 
MWal
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jul, 2014 11:04 am
@ripple,
Exactly, if it were nothing it would always be nothing.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jul, 2014 11:06 am
@MWal,
It depends on what you mean by "nothing."

The human animal has a very creative mind.
MWal
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jul, 2014 11:25 am
@cicerone imposter,
Literal nothing. Something can't come from nothing, but nothing does exist in all righteousness, but that existence is nil and not moral, but I don't think it's like that.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jul, 2014 11:37 am
@MWal,
I disagree with your definition.
Quote:
noth·ing
ˈnəTHiNG/
pronoun
1.
not anything; no single thing.
"I said nothing"
synonyms: not a thing, not anything, nil, zero, naught/nought; More
antonyms: something
something of no importance or concern.
"“What are you laughing at?” “Oh, nothing, sir.”"
synonyms: a trifling matter, a trifle; More
(in calculations) no amount; zero.
synonyms: zero, naught/nought, 0; More
adjectiveinformal
adjective: nothing
1. having no prospect of progress; of no value.
"he had a series of nothing jobs"
adverb
adverb: nothing
1. not at all.
"she cares nothing for others"


Try to guess why?
0 Replies
 
Stradee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jul, 2014 12:54 pm
Hi All,

Looking for Dannon5! We haven't seen him here or at FB, and are wondering if he and his wife are ok! High Seas had also attempted to contact Dannon, with no luck. Please, if you have any information, please lets us know. Thanks!
0 Replies
 
Stradee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jul, 2014 01:01 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Interesting question.

In my humble opinion, you can't make something from nothing.

Mentally, I suppose one can, but materially? Believe you need something tangible with some sort of density. An atom, a spark from material, something more than nothing. Smile
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jul, 2014 03:49 pm
@Stradee,
That's right; it's mentally. However, if we allow the progress of imagination, we can also agree that it can result in 'something from nothing.'

It took imagination to invent many of the things we now take for granted. Who would have though a few hundred years ago that man would be capable of flying around this planet in less than 10 days without refueling?
0 Replies
 
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jul, 2014 09:04 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
The human animal has a very creative mind.

Creativity is not from Nothing in any case.
It is simple logical inference, often it is some analogy, but this is not Nothing. The fact that the other people don't see how 'it is made' and the very person often doesn't put efforts to self-realize 'how it happens' does not necessarily mean that it is 'coming from Nothing'.
Besides that, the mental processes underlying the creativity, are existing in the physical world, they are real ... and this is not Nothing.

If the source or the cause of something is intangible at some stage of detection this does not necessarily mean that that Something comes from Nothing.
We don't have perceptions about everything - our hearing is in the lower part of the RF spectrum, and our vision in the upper part. We have no personal perception organs for the FM range for example, and the very fact that we can listen to the carried by it music on the radio does not necessarily mean that the music is coming from Nowhere and from Nothing.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jul, 2014 09:29 pm
@Herald,
Your attempts to constrict the meaning of something from nothing fails in every sense. You don't get to define how something can come about from nothing.

Anyone finding money on the sidewalk gets 'something from nothing.' He gets value for having done no work.

In its broader meaning, 'something from nothing' means it comes into existence when it didn't exist before.

We're not talking physics here, we're talking about ideas. Language was created when none existed before.
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jul, 2014 10:14 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Your attempts to constrict the meaning of something from nothing fails in every sense.

Can you gave an example of some of these 'every sense' (interpretations actually).

cicerone imposter wrote:
Anyone finding money on the sidewalk gets 'something from nothing.'

Definitely not. The lost money does not come from nothing - they might have come from a rented pocket or from negligence in paying the doughnut or something of the kind, but this is not nothing.
The guy finding the money finds them on the sidewalk (it is not from nowhere), and as a result of some Event X - street fight, negligence (which is not from nothing)

cicerone imposter wrote:
He gets value for having done no work.

This is not a habitual process - this is an incident. You cannot go walking around and finding money all the time, can you?

cicerone imposter wrote:
In its broader meaning, 'something from nothing' means it comes into existence when it didn't exist before.

Exactly. The very fact that the money has been lost does not necessarily mean that the person earning them provided no labour, or that the money before being lost has not been printed yet.

cicerone imposter wrote:
We're not talking physics here, we're talking about ideas.

You don't have a formal definition for idea - what you are talking about.

cicerone imposter wrote:
Language was created when none existed before.

The language has been created most probably from more primitive forms of communication ... where 'created' has to be replaced with 'developed'.
Even if it has been 'created' from ground zero, it is still not from nothing, for it is a representation of the world, which means that it is created from perception, mapping, representation and processing ... by some 'fresh ideas' ... to lay down the fundamentals of the communications, hence the communications als don't come from nothing, etc.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Jul, 2014 12:08 am
@Herald,
You're missing the concept of "something from nothing." Unless you're able to open up your mind, you'll never understand the meaning. We're not talking physics here; it's conceptual.
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jul, 2014 12:22 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
You're missing the concept of "something from nothing." Unless you're able to open up your mind, you'll never understand the meaning. We're not talking physics here; it's conceptual.

I may be missing the point, but I am not alone.
The very fact that the mental processes are implicit does not necessarily mean that they are producing something out of nothing ... even at conceptual level.
As you are so highly conceptualized, can you give an example (of getting something out of nothing at conceptual level).
As far as the banknote is concerned - in any case scenario it is not something coming out of nothing.
Money is a measure of value. The value goes with the money. The person who has found the banknote has acquired the value with the banknote onto the moment of picking up the banknote (it doesn't matter that he didn't pay anything for that value).
You are talking as if the usurers are providing any labour or value against the money they acquire from the interest accrued.
The very moment the lucky person touches the banknote he takes possession of the value it is representing. There is nothing here appearing out of nothing.
BTW the question was 'Can something come (come into existence, appear, be created) out of nothing?' not 'Can you get something against giving nothing?', which is a different question.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jul, 2014 02:07 pm
@Herald,
Simple;
Quote:
con·cep·tu·al
kənˈsepCHo͞oəl/
adjective
of, relating to, or based on mental concepts.
"philosophy deals with conceptual difficulties"


You answered your own question with
Quote:
BTW the question was 'Can something come (come into existence, appear, be created) out of nothing?

A: Yes.
Inventions, creations, languages, sports, culture, kings, queens, gods, donald duck, santa clause, the easter bunny, names, countries, airplanes, cars, boats, high tech, tv, schools, hospitals, doctors, nurses, teachers, students, ........
They were all created by men/women when they didn't exist at one time.
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jul, 2014 02:41 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
A: Yes.
Inventions, creations, languages, sports, culture, kings, queens, gods, donald duck, santa clause, the easter bunny, names, countries, airplanes, cars, boats, high tech, tv, schools, hospitals, doctors, nurses, teachers, students, ........
They were all created by men/women when they didn't exist at one time.

This is ridiculous. The above said are all representations of feelings, dreams, hopes that are not exactly Nothing.
Take for example inventions.
Df: An invention is a unique or novel device, method, composition or process.
In the worst case scenario you have to be able to handle the methods and processes used in the invention ... and this is not 'from Nothing'.
Or sports, for example.
Df: Sports is all forms of competitive physical activity which, through casual or organised participation, aim to use, maintain or improve physical ability and skills while providing entertainment to participants, and in some cases, spectators
So sports is preceded by the dream to have better functioning and better looking body ... which is not 'from Nothing' in any case interpretation, etc.
The fact that these things seem 'coming from Nothing' to you is so much the worse for you.
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Thu 3 Jul, 2014 02:52 pm
@Herald,
Talk about 'ignorant,' you take the cake.

Quote:
ig·no·rant
ˈignərənt/
adjective
lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.
"he was told constantly that he was ignorant and stupid"
synonyms: uneducated, unknowledgeable, untaught, unschooled, untutored, untrained, illiterate, unlettered, unlearned, unread, uninformed, unenlightened, benighted; More
antonyms: educated
lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular.
"they were ignorant of astronomy"
synonyms: without knowledge of, unaware of, unconscious of, oblivious to, incognizant of, unfamiliar with, unacquainted with, uninformed about, ill-informed about, unenlightened about, unconversant with, inexperienced in/with, naive about, green about;
More
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jul, 2014 10:24 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Talk about 'ignorant,' you take the cake.

What about 'red herring' - the case when the arguer diverts the attention by changing the subject (from 'something coming out of nothing') with some other irrelevant subject (like for example ignorance about the atheistic cross-cultural misunderstanding of the world).
What gaps your are filling by the definition that you are presenting with such a great care, without even stating out what is the main idea of all that?
The universal negative 'Nothing' is impossible, hence the assumptions for the statement 'Something coming out of Nothing' are invalid by default, from where follows that the very statement is invalid, whence it follows that any question based on invalid statement (like for example 'How can something come from nothing?') is invalid ... as a question.
... and the next question is: 'Who is the ignorant one?'
 

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