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Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea- Bush or Kerry?

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2004 05:44 am
Scrat wrote:
Refresh my memory as to how many of those have been on US soil or involved US civilians. Thanks.


And the number of Al-Qaeda attacks having multiplied since 2001 does not spell trouble for the safety and security of the US how?

Remember, I was responding to the repeated assertion that "terrorism seems to have been reduced". It has not.

And not just has it increased in some abstract, general sense - there have been more terrorist attacks attributed to Al-Qaeda since 9/11 than ever before.

So how does the fact that the plotters of the biggest attack against America ever are still on the loose, and have been creating more havoc than ever before, make Bush a good national security president?

"Hey, that burglar, who burglared our house and burn the kitchen down last year, they say he's still on the run - and I've heard that he's committed more burglaries in this neighbourhood since, then he ever did before. But hey, as long as he hasnt burglared our house again, I guess the cops are doing a good job in ensuring our safety!"

That just doesnt make sense to me.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2004 05:46 am
caprice- See what happens when I fall asleep, and am not around to put my two cents in? Laughing :wink:

Seriously though, it is important that we DO keep to the topic. I wrote it for myself, but I realize that there are a lot of people who have similar concerns that I do. If we can keep the topic tight, and stay on course, I do believe that it will prove very helpful to people who are ambivalent.

Frank- I take just a bit of umbrage at the suggestion that I should not vote, if I have not made up my mind by Election Day. I will vote, even if I have to write in "Alfred E. Neumann", (which, under the circumstances, may be the better choice! Laughing )
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2004 07:04 am
Scrat wrote:
Was Kerry using "fictitious evidence" when he said the following?
Quote:
"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..." -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D-MA), Jan. 23. 2003

That certainly puts Kerry in the same sport as Bush, if not in the same ballpark. :wink:

No it doesn't. Kerry saw the evidence as presented to him by the Bush administration, believed it, and concluded it justified the use of force. That was a mistake, but in my opinion a forgiveable one. He was just too naive to suspect that the administration would present ficticious evidence. By contrast, the Bush administration is responsible for the evidence being ficticious.

In the runup to the war on Iraq, this administration created a climate in which nobody was fired for being wrong or breaching security, but several high ranking people were fired for speaking up and saying things that were unpopular but correct. The most prominent examples are Larry Lindsey, who got fired for saying the occupation of Iraq would cost at least 100 billion dollars, and General Shinesky, the army chief of staff, who got fired for saying that the occupation would tie up several hundred thousand troops for several years.

In other words, Lindsey and Shinesky both got fired for saying that what did happen, would happen.

Which brings me back to my original point. Kerry made a petty mistake, and I am generally unimpressed by him. George Bush made a huge, systematic mistake, which is dangerous on the scale of war and peace. Since Phoenix says national security is the most important issue for her, I believe it is relevant for her that the most powerful job in the world is currently being held by a person who actively suppresses correct advice because he doesn't feel like listening to it.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2004 07:30 am
I don't think the 9/11 is working for bush as he is behind the polls now and he has been running on that one issue for long enough to see if it is going to work.

I think that things could go either way and it depends on who does a better job of smearing the other guy.

If anyone really wants to make an informed decision without advice from people who have already made up their minds, they can always search on the internet for information and records of both Kerry and Bush. Find out which bills Kerry voted no on and what all was contained in the entire bill. Find out which votes he changed his mind on from a previous similar bill. Look up records from Bush's days of being a Texas Governor and find out what he advocated to be passed. Then do a search on his campaign promises and statements and do a comparison on things that he advocated to be passed since he took office of the Presidency. I think in the end you will find that Kerry fares better but it up to each individual to make informed decisions on who to vote for and in this day and of acess to information there is really no excuse to fall for campaigning games.

If however people are divided on idealogy grounds on who to vote for then unless something is really bad then it is not going to matter what their voting and agenda records are. I admit that I am a lefty in political and government issue so I will vote that way.

As for the security issue anyone could have done the same after 9/11.

As for other countries and their willingness to corporate on the surface in regards to their weapons and intentions or whatever in that regard, I think it is more to do with wanting to court other countries so that they will not be isolated and venerable to us. We have scared the rest of the world and I don't think it is anything to be proud of or to feel safe about. I would rather win over the rest of the world than scare the rest of the world. If you win them over then they won't feel the need to attack us but if we just scare them into submission sooner or later they will rise up and band together against us. (I am talking about governments or countries not terrorist who for the most part work on their own)
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L R R Hood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2004 07:31 am
If I were you, I would just watch all the live debates between Bush and Kerry. Don't feel isolated, though, because a lot of people are having a hard time backing Bush.

Some things to think about... from both sides:
Bush has lost a lot of support that has gone towards Libertarians.
He did lower taxes.
He has started reform of the INS, which is very important, and of course that will take time.
In a president's second term, he doesn't have to think about re-election and has a little bit more flexibility in what he does.
My liberal history teacher said he was going to vote for Bush, because he wanted Bush to clean up his own mess.
Kerry has been contradictory in his voting, so who knows where he stands--but it IS ok to change one's mind... just not to go back and forth.
There was a lot of illegal voting in the last presidential election (criminals, dead people, etc... so don't listen to all that Florida will cast your vote for you BS) The media messed that one up by announcing Gore to be the winner before FL's 2nd time zone was finished voting.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2004 08:09 am
Check this out. I plan on spending quite a bit of time on this site:

http://issues2002.org/default.htm
0 Replies
 
quinn1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2004 08:46 am
oh-I like that site Phoenix-thanks for including it
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2004 09:18 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
[Frank- I take just a bit of umbrage at the suggestion that I should not vote, if I have not made up my mind by Election Day. I will vote, even if I have to write in "Alfred E. Neumann", (which, under the circumstances, may be the better choice! Laughing )[/color][/b]


If it is a choice between George Bush and Alfred E. Neumann -- (which really is not much of a choice, in my opinion) -- by all means go with Al. I understand he is a hell of a guy -- and from his pictures, he is probably a lot more intelligent than the other guy. :wink: :wink:



ALL KIDDING ASIDE: I hope you -- and all the other people who are struggling with the issues you are -- come down on the side of sanity. Republicans, in general -- and conservatives, in particular are no more dedicated to the safety of this country and all its citizens than are Democrats, Independents, liberals, middle-of-the-roaders, or iconoclasts such as myself. And all the rest of the agenda favors getting rid of Bush and his crew.

FURTHER ASIDE: The only way we will ever truly make ourselves safer -- is by helping everyone else on the planet be safer also. And that goal is not furthered by the kinds of international screw-ups this current administration seems intent on doing purposely.
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2004 09:22 am
bush needs to go....period.
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Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2004 09:29 am
Thomas wrote:
No it doesn't. Kerry saw the evidence as presented to him by the Bush administration, believed it, and concluded it justified the use of force. That was a mistake, but in my opinion a forgiveable one. He was just too naive to suspect that the administration would present ficticious evidence. By contrast, the Bush administration is responsible for the evidence being ficticious.

Which brings me back to my original point. Kerry made a petty mistake, and I am generally unimpressed by him. George Bush made a huge, systematic mistake, which is dangerous on the scale of war and peace. Since Phoenix says national security is the most important issue for her, I believe it is relevant for her that the most powerful job in the world is currently being held by a person who actively suppresses correct advice because he doesn't feel like listening to it.


I'm glad you pointed out where that evidence originated, Thomas. Whether he could be called naive... I question. Most people believed the Bush administration (and especially Powell) was telling the truth when they advised the world on the extent of the Weapons of Mass Destruction in Saddam's arsenal. It was such an audacious lie that it worked.
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L R R Hood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2004 10:05 am
Great site, Phoenix!
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2004 10:19 am
Thomas wrote:
Since Phoenix says national security is the most important issue for her, I believe it is relevant for her that the most powerful job in the world is currently being held by a person who actively suppresses correct advice because he doesn't feel like listening to it.


<applause>
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2004 11:17 am
Thomas wrote:
Scrat wrote:
Was Kerry using "fictitious evidence" when he said the following?
Quote:
"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..." -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D-MA), Jan. 23. 2003

That certainly puts Kerry in the same sport as Bush, if not in the same ballpark. :wink:

No it doesn't. Kerry saw the evidence as presented to him by the Bush administration, believed it, and concluded it justified the use of force. That was a mistake, but in my opinion a forgiveable one.

You and I both know that Kerry would have gotten his information through direct briefings of the Senate by the CIA, etc. through the appropriate committee. You like to pretend that Bush told Kerry what Bush wanted Kerry to believe, but the fact is that both Bush and Kerry got their information from the same sources. If Kerry is to be absolved of being misled by the intelligence experts, then so is Bush.

And I suppose that Bush also somehow managed to mislead the French, the Russians, the UN... all the other countries and entities that also believed Saddam had WMD? For such a moron, that Bush is one crafty bastard! Rolling Eyes

And for the record, it's definitely the same ballpark.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2004 11:20 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Check this out. I plan on spending quite a bit of time on this site:

http://issues2002.org/default.htm

Good citation. In case people aren't aware of it, I also recommend:

http://www.opensecrets.org/
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2004 11:39 am
Scrat- That's another good one to watch. Thanks!
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2004 11:42 am
Scrat wrote:
You like to pretend that Bush told Kerry what Bush wanted Kerry to believe, but the fact is that both Bush and Kerry got their information from the same sources.

No. I like to 'pretend', if you want to call it that, that Bush bullied the CIA into telling him the story he wanted hear, rather than the story that had actually happened. By shutting up people who stood up for the facts, he created an incentive for everyone to tell convenient rumors and half-truths instead. The CIA's people responded to these incentives, and delivered the required story to Bush to Congress.

Scrat wrote:
And I suppose that Bush also somehow managed to mislead the French, the Russians, the UN... all the other countries and entities that also believed Saddam had WMD?

I'm not sure if you're saying that the French, the Russians, and the UN were among the countries which believed Saddam had WMDs. They didn't. The French, the Russian (and the Germans) found the American evidence unconvincing (Joschka Fischer's words), and apparently so did the UN plenum, which voted against the war with a large majority. I believe, without having any way to prove it, that these countries relied more heavily on their own evidence, which was much less cooked than America's. That's why their assesment turned out to be correct and America's didn't.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2004 11:53 am
Thomas wrote:
Scrat wrote:
You like to pretend that Bush told Kerry what Bush wanted Kerry to believe, but the fact is that both Bush and Kerry got their information from the same sources.

No. I like to 'pretend', if you want to call it that, that Bush bullied the CIA into telling him the story he wanted hear, rather than the story that had actually happened.

Then help me understand how Bush bullied the CIA into misleading Nancy Pelosi in 1998, two years before he took office:

Quote:
"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." -- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-CA), Dec. 16, 1998

The fly in your ointment is that the government didn't suddenly begin to espouse the belief that Saddam posed a threat and had weapons when Bush took office; there is considerable evidence that this belief was widespread and firmly held long before he had a chance to work his evil voodoo on hapless, helpless waifs like Kerry, Clinton (H), Gore, and others...

Still no sale, Thomas, and you are straying further and further from what facts indicate and straying more and more into an area where your thoughts are ruled by what you personally believe as opposed to what can be proven or even reasonably inferred.
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Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2004 01:35 pm
Here's another big problem with Bush... he doesn't understand what the reserves and National Guard are for... defense of this country IN this country.

Quote:
WIS News 10 asked keynote speaker, Arizona Senator John McCain, about reports the Pentagon has alerted four major National Guard units for service in Iraq, "I think there is a tremendous strain on our Guard and Reserve units and we're gonna pay a heavy price in retention. These young men and women will do the job and they'll do it tremendously well, but you can't keep deploying 'em and expect 'em to stay in, otherwise, they'll become members of the regular military."

Senator McCain said that next month, 40% of the troops in Iraq will be Guard or Reserve troops, the highest percentage ever.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2004 02:07 pm
Thomas; I have mad respect for your intellect and your usually very well thought out perspectives, but I think Scrat is right this time. Much of the world doubted the credibility of the American and British intelligence and more pointedly the amount of threat that Saddam actually posed. Few countries, however, doubted he possessed illegal weapons. Saddam's past behavior clearly makes it a head-in-the-sand position to just assume he didn't. You can blame Saddam himself for kicking out the inspectors in 1998 (and to some degree Bill Clinton for letting him get away with it), for the lack of hard evidence one way or another. If forced to guess if a convicted felon, with 17 straight parole violations is in compliance; I too would prefer to err on the side of caution. I further think it's completely reasonable to re-assess the threshold of risk we are willing to accept in light of the tragedy of 9-11.

9-11 even; wasn't the nightmarish holocaust that it could have been. The unprecedented risks associated with WMD's make the noble ideal of "innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" entirely too great. Whenever possible; we must reduce these risks, even if it means we have to take risks to do it.

As pointed out by many; Saddam posed a much lesser threat than say; Kim Jong Il. That coupled with the decade of failed diplomacy, in my book; made Iraq the perfect place to start. I only hope the difficulties and tragedies associated with this first step, do not destroy our resolve to rid the planet of the potential horrors that WE WILL FACE if we don't finish what we've started.

Steve is right of course too. Our credibility in the eyes of the world has certainly suffered do to Bush's exaggerations (or lies if you prefer). However: Learning that Saddam didn't pose the immediate threat that we mistakenly guestimated, does not absolve Saddam of his sins. He did possess weapons with an illegal engine diameter size and we now know he was attempting to procure Rodong missile technology from North Korea. The century old quote "Politics makes strange bedfellows" remains quite true.

My apologies to Phoenix, if I've strayed too far off topic. I am merely trying to demonstrate why I believe a strong, even arrogant in his delivery, Commander in Chief is a necessary evil in these troubled times. These problems won't cure themselves. Gone is the time when oppressed peoples can rise up on their own to overthrow their evil oppressors. Without help from a superior force; many of the world's citizens will suffer untold horrors, generation after generation, until some despot or other launches a Nuke to protect his position. I for one would prefer we take whatever risks necessary; to attempt to reduce this threat before it's too late (if indeed, it isn't already). I despise war as much as anyone, but recognize the necessity, and believe the sooner we face these horrific truths, the less costly they will be. Removing Hitler, at an advanced stage, proved very costly indeed. Just imagine that monster with Nukes; and you will understand why I hold the position of a "warmonger". Idea
Peace, out.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2004 02:16 pm
IMO, few countries doubted whether Saddam had said weapons because the US seemed so sure about it. Well, this along with their predisposition to believe bad things about infamous people.

Many nations were reading our moves and thinking that it must mean we had evidence.

This isn't necessarily a comment on Bush, because the US position as to the existence of the weapons didn't change except in how it suddenly became the topic of the year.

Before Bush came into power the US suspected existence of weapons but kept the actions about it on a level that corresponded with the evidence (i.e. pushing for scrutiny but not necessarily invasion).

Most countries had no evidence of these weapons but did not think the US would be so sure about the weapons if we didn't have evidence ourselves.

It's a catch 22. Nobody had evidence and the nature of intel is that it's guarded. America kept repeating that these weapons existed and few expected us to have to eat our words.

They had their doubts because their intel didn't come up with any evidence but lots of intel is based off of media and visible positions from other governments.

The US position on Saddam had long been one that few could read as being anything other than us knowing Saddam had weapons or were close.

There was doubt that we might be wrong, but our actions were screaming that the weapons existed, and many operated off of that basis.
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