14
   

Palestinian Statehood, a Travesty

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 06:51 pm
@georgeob1,
If you believe there are "many better sources than Wiki," please provide a couple - with definitions for "democracy." Thank you.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 06:54 pm
@cicerone imposter,
You are stubbornly evading the question and hiding from your own illogic.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 06:54 pm
@georgeob1,
Also, show me what other democracy allows the illegal takeover of other "groups" property?

0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 06:55 pm
@georgeob1,
You're the one evading my requests.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 07:08 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Nonsense. You have offered a definition od a democracy as a state which treats all its citizens equally, and you have offered the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and admittedly unequal treatment of its people as proof that Israel is a democracy. Unfortunately the people of the West Bank are not citizens of Israel. Therefore your "proof" doesn't apply.

Britain was considered to be a model democracy even as it (unequally) ruled an empire that spanned the world.

I recognize that you rarely demonstrate the maturity to acknowledge that you are wrong in any detail. However, in this case you are taking it a bit far.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 07:45 pm
@georgeob1,
I didn't say "a democracy as a state treats all its citizens equally." If I did, please copy and paste my statement here.

But even the Declaration of Independence says,
Quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


That you assume that by my definition "all citizens are treated equally" isn't true, and you know it! I lived with discrimination in this country, and still recognize it against other minorities and women, so why would you even suggest what I believe a democracy is?

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 08:07 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Another article from Wiki.
Quote:
Palestinian freedom of movement
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Before the Huwwara Checkpoint checkpoint was dismantled in 2011[1], it was known to the IDF as a magnet for pipe bombs, stabbing attacks and suicide bombers on their way to assault targets in Israel, while for Palestinians, it was a cause of daily misery, and a restriction on the freedom of movement.[2]

The restriction of the movement of Palestinians in the Israeli-occupied territories by the Israeli government is an issue in the Israel-Palestinian conflict. According to B'Tselem, following the 1967 war, the Occupied Territories were proclaimed closed military zones. In 1972, general exit orders were issued allowing residents of those territories to move freely between the West Bank, Israel and Gaza. In 1991, these general exit orders were revoked, and personal exit permits were required. According to B'Tselem, a measure of overall closure of the Occupied Territories was enacted for the first time in 1993, and would result in total closures following rises in Palestinian political violence.[3]

In the mid-1990s, with the implementation of the Oslo Accords and the division of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip into three separate administrative divisions, there was little change to these restrictions. Comprehensive closures during the Second Intifada resulted in complete prohibitions on Palestinian movement into Israel and between the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and the situation remains the same today.[3] Israel says that the regime of restrictions is necessary to protect Israelis living in Israel and the Israeli settlements.[4][5]

Israel enforces restrictions on the freedom of movement of Palestinians in the West Bank by employing a system of permanent, temporary and random manned checkpoints, the West Bank Barrier and by forbidding the usage of roads by Palestinians.[6] A 2007 World Bank report concluded that the West Bank "is experiencing severe and expanding restrictions on movement and access, high levels of unpredictability and a struggling economy."[7] Unmanned physical obstructions to block roads and paths might include dirt piles, concrete blocks, large stones, barriers, ditches, and metal gates. The physical obstructions might be altered often, on the basis of political and security circumstances.

According to Israeli authorities, during 2008-2009, a significant amount of checkpoints were removed. As of July 2009, Israeli authorities reported that 27 checkpoints and 140 roadblocks had been removed in order to ease security restrictions in the West Bank. An additional 140 roadblocks were said to have been opened to traffic in 2008. As of 2009, there were 504 dirt roadblocks and 14 checkpoints in the West Bank.[8]


I'm also going by what I heard from a Palestinian women on my first visit to Israel in 2006. Her family has lived in Israel for several generations, but she doesn't have the freedom to travel in her own country.

Those high walls around the occupied territories are more like prisons than they are "fences."

And then, there's this.
Quote:
ei: Blockade denying Gaza youth education, employment

March 18, 2011 by occupiedpalestine 0 Comments

Report, The Electronic Intifada, 17 March 2011

Undergraduate students at Islamic University in Gaza City. (Erica Silverman/IRIN)


RAMALLAH, occupied West Bank (IRIN) – The next generation in the Gaza Strip may be less educated, less professional and perhaps more radical because an Israeli blockade has restricted educational and employment opportunities, say UN and other sources.

The four-year blockade has particularly affected youths aged 18-24, limiting access to higher education, academic exchanges and professional development, says Gaza’s education ministry. About 65 percent of Gaza’s 1.6 million people are under 25, according to UN estimates.

“Higher education in all its forms is absolutely critical to a functioning society and the creation of a future Palestinian state,” Max Gaylard, UN Humanitarian Coordinator for the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip, told IRIN, and “to maintain a necessary level of skills in professional sectors, like medicine and engineering.”

Gaza’s unemployment rate — nearly 50 percent according to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics (PCBS) — indicates dire prospects for the rapidly growing and youthful population.

The economic blockade, imposed by Israel after the Islamist resistance movement Hamas took control of Gaza in June 2007, has obstructed the import of books, science laboratory and other educational equipment to Gaza, according to the UN Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO). Israel allows in limited humanitarian supplies.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 08:44 pm
@revelette,
revelette wrote:
Just because someone is a bully does not mean you got to give in to them in order to avoid more bullying. It is not as though they have froze settlement building up to this date.


Of course Israel hasn't stopped settlement construction. That would only be done as part of peaceful negotiations, which the Palestinians have refused to participate in.


And actually, Israel did stop settlement construction for awhile. Obama made a deal with them where they would temporarily halt construction for 10 months in exchange for a large stockpile of 5000-pound bunker busters, which they need to bomb Iran's illegal nuclear program. As soon as Israel got the bombs, they halted construction for the full 10 months as agreed.


And speaking of settlement construction, now that the Palestinians and the UN have nullified the Oslo accords, Israel has announced that they will begin to build housing in the E-1 area.

That is great news. Developing the E-1 area will give Israel a solid block of settlements all the way from Jerusalem to the rim of the Jordan River Valley (effectively severing the Palestinian West Bank into northern and southern halves).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E1_Plan
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 08:48 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
This whole thing is eventually going to end with the US yanking our billions of dollars of aid to Israel, and let them handle their own affairs from now on. Which is how it should be.


Wrong. The US is going to continue to provide aid to Israel.

That said, Israel would do fine if the US suddenly ceased to exist. They would just need to be a bit more proactive about bombing their neighbors, like they were in the old days. What US aid really does is gives Israel the security to be more lenient on their neighbors than they would otherwise have to be.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 08:53 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
oralloy wrote:
That is what is known as a "border fence". We have one of those ourselves, along our border with Mexico.


But Palestinians are citizens of Israel.


Not the ones who live outside Israel.



cicerone imposter wrote:
You are really, really, stupid!


You trash shouldn't run around falsely accusing your betters of your own stupidity.



cicerone imposter wrote:
Israel is not a democracy when they fence in - like prisoners - their own citizens.


Israel doesn't fence in their own citizens. They wall out foreigners who are not in any way citizens.



cicerone imposter wrote:
you who are inhuman and bigoted.


You trash shouldn't run around falsely accusing your betters of your own evilness.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 08:56 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Funny, the Palestinian people are also Semitic.


You're just confusing him with facts.


Unfortunately for those who oppose me, facts don't confuse me.

And both of you know better than to twist the meaning of the term anti-Semitism. Shame on you both.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 09:01 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
From the NYT.
Quote:
Israel Pushing Controversial Settlements in East Jerusalem

Rina Castelnuovo for The New York Times
From his home in East Jerusalem last year, Haj Ibrahim Ahmad Hawa looked at the separation barrier surrounding Jerusalem with the Israeli settlement of Maale Adumim in the background.
By JODI RUDOREN
Published: November 30, 2012

JERUSALEM — As the United Nations General Assembly voted overwhelmingly to upgrade the Palestinians’ status Thursday night, Israel took steps toward building housing in a controversial area of East Jerusalem known as E1, where Jewish settlements have long been seen as the death knell for a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.


Oralboy wants peace by expanding their settlements. He thinks this is justified under his Zionist brains. He has the audacity to call Israel a "democracy." What a yokel.


Are you going to cry?

You're too stupid to even understand what the E-1 area even is, so why are you whining?

Or has someone already explained to you that this will give Israel a solid block of settlements all the way from Jerusalem to the rim of the Jordan River Valley (permanently severing the Palestinian West Bank into northern and southern halves)?

Oh well. That's what the Palestinians get for nullifying the Oslo Accords.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 09:08 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

[And both of you know better than to twist the meaning of the term anti-Semitism. Shame on you both.

Then praytell, what is your definition of anti Semitism ?
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 09:13 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
My problem is that Israel is trying to subsume much of the land of the West Bank into Israel, without accepting its current and former residents, and has been governing this captured territory for over 40 years without recognizing the human or civil rights of its inhabitants.


Israel tried making peace and letting the Palestinians have their own state. All the Palestinians did was run around murdering people.

And Israel has not governed the Palestinian areas since the 1990s. The Palestinians were granted autonomy back when people foolishly believe that they were willing to make peace.



georgeob1 wrote:
In this it is merely repeating the oppressive treatment the various European powers visited on their Jews during the last century. Democracies can oppress & exploit others and do evil things. Israel is the prime example.


All Israel does is prevent the Palestinians from murdering people. That's not "oppressive treatment".
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 09:14 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

I didn't say "a democracy as a state treats all its citizens equally." If I did, please copy and paste my statement here.
You posted a Wicki definition of Democracy here that said exactly that. Look for yourself.

cicerone imposter wrote:

But even the Declaration of Independence says,
Quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

The United States was a state that permitted slavery until our Civil war. Were we founded as a Democracy? Most writers believe so.

cicerone imposter wrote:

That you assume that by my definition "all citizens are treated equally" isn't true, and you know it! I lived with discrimination in this country, and still recognize it against other minorities and women, so why would you even suggest what I believe a democracy is?
Your words here don't make any sense. I have never maintained that all citizens in this country are treated equally. Indeed I noted that they aren't so treated in my opening post in this increasingly strange dialogue. However, we are still considered to be a Democracy.

I'm getting weary of your ever-changing circular logic.


0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 09:15 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
oralloy wrote:
[And both of you know better than to twist the meaning of the term anti-Semitism. Shame on you both.


Then praytell, what is your definition of anti Semitism ?


Anti-Semitism is hatred and demonization directed at Jews.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 09:17 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

That is great news. Developing the E-1 area will give Israel a solid block of settlements all the way from Jerusalem to the rim of the Jordan River Valley (effectively severing the Palestinian West Bank into northern and southern halves).


Thus confining the unfortunate Palestinians to ever smaller ghettos.

Israel is beconing a pariah state, and is fast losing the sympathy of the American people and most certainly the support of our current Administration. Only the cynical facade of support remains. Soon enough that too will be gone.
RST
 
  4  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 09:35 pm
@oralloy,
You seriously don't see the long term repercussions of your pathetic logic.

Candidly, I can’t see how the situation that you mentioned about continuing to provide aid to Israel like this would hold me back from speaking out against U.S. foreign policy in general (even if I were Jewish).
Looking at our economy, aren’t you just asking American Jews to be Jews first and Americans second, even if it’s a mirror-image of the Israel-first approach to being Jews first and Americans second (seeing that maybe American Jews feel they have more of responsibility to do something about Israel-Palestine relation than about any other foreign policy issues), but does this cancel out or take precedence over responsibility to address other foreign policy problems at hand which are more urgent and important? If you answer this question with a yes, the it's just simply a plan for disaster.

All I can say is that if this support continues, it is only because zionism beliefs penetrate the inner works of U.S. government, some corporate entities, as well as in the very large gray area between the corporate and the governmental. It isn't even logical or democratic decision, but political pundits and special interest groups who often rely on emotion and fear mongering to facilitate their objectives.

You're un-Americana!
Now that is a more accurate statement to describe you, than your tried and failed method of calling anyone an antisemite, if they don't agree to your pathetic logic on the issue at hand.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 09:36 pm
@georgeob1,
SF Gate.
Quote:
Israel to Build New Homes in Jerusalem, West Bank After Vote
Gwen Ackerman and Udi Segal, ©2012 Bloomberg News
Updated 3:43 p.m., Friday, November 30, 2012



Nov. 30 (Bloomberg) -- Israel approved the construction of 3,000 new homes in Jerusalem and the West Bank less than 24 hours after the United Nations General Assembly voted to recognize Palestine as a non-member observer state.

Israel also intends to move ahead on procedures necessary to plan for construction in a West Bank area between the Jewish settlement of Maaleh Adumim and Jerusalem, two government officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the matter.

The Palestinian Authority, the UN and the U.S. consider all Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal. The area between Jerusalem and Maaleh Adumim is particularly sensitive because Israeli construction there may cut off Palestinians from their aspirational capital in east Jerusalem in a future peace accord.



Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/business/bloomberg/article/Israel-to-Build-New-Homes-in-Jerusalem-West-Bank-4081776.php#ixzz2Dlf9VZmw
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 10:56 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
oralloy wrote:
That is great news. Developing the E-1 area will give Israel a solid block of settlements all the way from Jerusalem to the rim of the Jordan River Valley (effectively severing the Palestinian West Bank into northern and southern halves).


Thus confining the unfortunate Palestinians to ever smaller ghettos.


Not really. The Northern and southern halves of the West Bank are fairly large areas -- hardly ghettos.

But in any case, that's what the Palestinians get for trying to murder people instead of making peace.



georgeob1 wrote:
Israel is beconing a pariah state, and is fast losing the sympathy of the American people and most certainly the support of our current Administration. Only the cynical facade of support remains. Soon enough that too will be gone.


That is incorrect on all counts. The only people who object to Israel are the anti-Semites, and they don't count. America in general still supports Israel.
0 Replies
 
 

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