14
   

Palestinian Statehood, a Travesty

 
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2012 05:40 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Your "outrage" is misplaced, as is your thinking on this matter.


I'm not evil like you are. I don't approve of anti-Semitism.

Hopefully Israel responds to this outrage by annexing everything west of the Separation Fence.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2012 07:26 pm

Here's a positive sign:

Quote:
The Prime Minister's Office issued a statement after Palestinian Authority Mahmoud Abbas's speech at the UN General Assembly, saying that by going to the UN the Palestinians have "violated agreements with Israel, and Israel will act accordingly."

Israel has made clear in recent days that it would free Israel of its obligations under the Oslo accord since Jerusalem views the move as a blatant violation of the underlying principle of those agreements: that all outstanding issues be resolved through negotiations, not through unilateral actions.

http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=294043
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2012 08:54 pm
@oralloy,
Please show me by copying and pasting what I wrote on this thread where I'm evil?

Are you claiming now that the UN and international organizations that are against the robbing of Palestinian lands and freedoms by the Iraelis are evil too?

They've already "fenced" many parts of Jerusalem. I was there last month and took pictures of them - including the check points where Israeli soldiers with guns restrict Palestinians from driving through.


Does these pictures reflect a democracy? Fenced into prisons and check points to restrict freedom of movement?

What other "democratic" country fences in defined groups of people, and restricts their freedom of moving in their own country?

Fence in Jerusalem.
http://i45.tinypic.com/e22dg.jpg
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Check point.
http://i50.tinypic.com/2lm5fub.jpg
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2012 09:22 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Please show me by copying and pasting what I wrote on this thread where I'm evil?


Just take any of your anti-Semitic lies about Israel.



cicerone imposter wrote:
Are you claiming now that the UN and international organizations that are against the robbing of Palestinian lands and freedoms by the Iraelis are evil too?


There is no such robbing.

You should also differentiate the UN General Assembly and associated subcommittees (all infested with anti-Semitic vermin) from other parts of the UN, like the Security Council and the relief agencies.

But yes, the people you referred to are all anti-Semitic scumbags.



cicerone imposter wrote:
They've already "fenced" many parts of Jerusalem. I was there last month and took pictures of them - including the check points where Israeli soldiers with guns restrict Palestinians from driving through.

Does these pictures reflect a democracy? Fenced into prisons and check points to restrict freedom of movement?

What other "democratic" country fences in defined groups of people, and restricts their freedom of moving in their own country?


That is what is known as a "border fence". We have one of those ourselves, along our border with Mexico.

It does not interfere with movement within Israel. It only prevents people from entering Israel when they have no business doing so.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 12:15 am
THIS IS GOOD NEWS! HOORAY!

Quote:
UN vote recognizes state of Palestine; US objects

The United Nations voted overwhelmingly Thursday to recognize a Palestinian state, a long-sought victory for the Palestinians and an embarrassing diplomatic defeat for the United States.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 01:08 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
THIS IS GOOD NEWS! HOORAY!

Quote:
UN vote recognizes state of Palestine; US objects

The United Nations voted overwhelmingly Thursday to recognize a Palestinian state, a long-sought victory for the Palestinians and an embarrassing diplomatic defeat for the United States.


I'd call it mixed news. The Palestinians and the UN have just nullified the Oslo accords, which now makes it OK for Israel to unilaterally annex parts of the West Bank. That is certainly good.

However, it is a little sad to think that the Palestinians have finally once and for all killed any prospect for negotiations.

Oh well. With peace dead, now we can use more violence. Glass half full.
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  3  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 09:46 am
@oralloy,
Just because someone is a bully does not mean you got to give in to them in order to avoid more bullying. It is not as though they have froze settlement building up to this date.
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 10:47 am
@oralloy,
Quote:


But yes, the people you referred to are all anti-Semitic scumbags.


Funny, the Palestinian people are also Semitic.

This whole thing is eventually going to end with the US yanking our billions of dollars of aid to Israel, and let them handle their own affairs from now on. Which is how it should be.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 11:29 am
@oralloy,
You,
Quote:
That is what is known as a "border fence". We have one of those ourselves, along our border with Mexico.


But Palestinians are citizens of Israel. You are really, really, stupid! You twist your position like a pretzel to satisfy your own twisted thinking.

Israel is not a democracy when they fence in - like prisoners - their own citizens.

I love being called "anti-Semite" by the likes of you who are inhuman and bigoted.
RST
 
  2  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 11:31 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Amen to that.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 12:48 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Funny, the Palestinian people are also Semitic.


You're just confusing him with facts.
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 01:17 pm
@georgeob1,
From the NYT.
Quote:
Israel Pushing Controversial Settlements in East Jerusalem

Rina Castelnuovo for The New York Times
From his home in East Jerusalem last year, Haj Ibrahim Ahmad Hawa looked at the separation barrier surrounding Jerusalem with the Israeli settlement of Maale Adumim in the background.
By JODI RUDOREN
Published: November 30, 2012

JERUSALEM — As the United Nations General Assembly voted overwhelmingly to upgrade the Palestinians’ status Thursday night, Israel took steps toward building housing in a controversial area of East Jerusalem known as E1, where Jewish settlements have long been seen as the death knell for a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.


Oralboy wants peace by expanding their settlements. He thinks this is justified under his Zionist brains. He has the audacity to call Israel a "democracy." What a yokel.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 01:58 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Oralboy wants peace by expanding their settlements. He thinks this is justified under his Zionist brains. He has the audacity to call Israel a "democracy." What a yokel.
Israel truly is a Democracy - of that there is little doubt. Indeed the non-Jewish population of Israel (which is substantial - about 25% of the total) has almost equal rights with Jewish citizens (they can't serve in the military or get certain government jobs and there is some systematic discrimination). So I don't agree with you on that point.

My problem is that Israel is trying to subsume much of the land of the West Bank into Israel, without accepting its current and former residents, and has been governing this captured territory for over 40 years without recognizing the human or civil rights of its inhabitants. In this it is merely repeating the oppressive treatment the various European powers visited on their Jews during the last century. Democracies can oppress & exploit others and do evil things. Israel is the prime example.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 02:26 pm
@georgeob1,
You just contradicted yourself by implying
Quote:
Israel truly is a Democracy
, then ending with
Quote:
Israel is trying to subsume much of the land of the West Bank into Israel, without accepting its current and former residents, and has been governing this captured territory for over 40 years without recognizing the human or civil rights of its inhabitants
.

Israel is either a democracy or it isn't. From most people's POV, it's not a democracy - by any definition of that word. Partial recognition of a group is not "equality" of the whole by any means.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 02:35 pm
@cicerone imposter,
From Wiki.
Quote:
Israeli-occupied territories
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

The Israeli-occupied territories are the territories which have been designated as occupied territory by the United Nations and other international organizations, governments and others to refer to the territory seized by Israel during the Six-Day War of 1967 from Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. They consist of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem; the Gaza Strip, (though Israel disputes this and argues that since the implementation of its disengagement from Gaza in 2005 it no longer occupies the territory); much of the Golan Heights; and, until 1982, the Sinai Peninsula. The West Bank and Gaza Strip are also referred to as the Palestinian territories or "Occupied Palestinian Territory". The Palestinian Authority, the EU,[1] the International Court of Justice,[2] the UN General Assembly[3] and the UN Security Council[4] consider East Jerusalem to be part of the West Bank and occupied by Israel; Israel considers all of Jerusalem to be its capital and sovereign territory.

Israeli governments have preferred the term "disputed territories" in the case of the West Bank.[5][6] The Israeli High Court of Justice has ruled that Israel holds the West Bank under "belligerent occupation". The International Court of Justice,[2] the UN General Assembly[3] and the United Nations Security Council regards Israel as the "Occupying Power".[7]

The first use of the term 'territories occupied' was in United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 following the Six Day War in 1967, which called for "the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East" to be achieved by "the application of both the following principles: ... Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict ... Termination of all claims or states of belligerency" and respect for the right of every state in the area to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries.

Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem in 1980 (see Jerusalem Law) and the Golan Heights in 1981 (see Golan Heights Law) has not been recognised by any other country.[8] United Nations Security Council Resolution 478 declared the annexation of Jerusalem "null and void" and required that it be rescinded. United Nations Security Council Resolution 497 also declared the annexation of the Golan "null and void". Following withdrawal by Israel from the Sinai Peninsula in 1982, as part of the 1979 Israel–Egypt Peace Treaty, the Sinai ceased to be considered occupied territory. Israel unilaterally disengaged from Gaza in September 2005, and declared itself no longer to be in occupation of the Strip. However, as it retains control of Gaza's airspace and coastline, it continues to be designated as an occupying power in the Gaza Strip by the United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly[9] and some countries and various human rights organizations.[10][11]


Democracy,
Quote:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The following outline provides an overview of and topical guide to democracy.

Democracy – A form of government in which people have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives.[1] Democracy allows people to participate equally—either directly or through elected representatives—in the proposal, development, and creation of laws.[1]


"To participate equally...."
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 05:22 pm
@cicerone imposter,
You are badly misinformed. The word democracy refers to the process established for decision-making by government. Athens was the prototype model for democracy. It involved direct participation of all citizens in all the critical decisions of government. However the majority of the population of Athens were indentured servants with no rights of citizenship at all. Many, taking a narrow definition of the term democracy, wouldn't refer to any of the modern representative governments of the West as "Democracies" at all: they would insterad call them republics or representative democracies.

You appear to be applying you own definition of democracy. It sounds like by it your definition is "any representative government whos policies Cicerone likes". That is, of course, your right but it does not conform to the common understanding of the word.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 05:34 pm
@georgeob1,
You're going back in history on a term that is now established to mean "equal rights of all citizens."

From Wiki.
Quote:

Democracy
From Wikipedia ( View original Wikipedia Article ) Last modified on 30 November 2012, at 07:03

For the use of the term "democracy" as referring to a system involving multiparty elections, representative government, and freedom of speech, see Liberal democracy. For other uses, see Democracy (disambiguation).

Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives. Democracy allows eligible citizens to participate equally—either directly or through elected representatives—in the proposal, development, and creation of laws. It encompasses social, economic and cultural conditions that enable the free and equal practice of political self-determination.

The term originates from the Greek δημοκρατία (dēmokratía) "rule of the people",[1] which was coined from δῆμος (dêmos) "people" and κράτος (kratos) "power" in the 5th century BCE to denote the political systems then existing in Greek city-states, notably Athens; the term is an antonym to ἀριστοκρατία "rule of an elite." The English word dates to the 16th century, from the older Middle French and Middle Latin equivalents.

A democratic government contrasts to forms of government where power is either held by one, as in a monarchy, or where power is held by a small number of individuals, as in an oligarchy. Nevertheless, these oppositions, inherited from Greek philosophy,[2] are now ambiguous because contemporary governments have mixed democratic, oligarchic, and monarchic elements. Karl Popper defined democracy in contrast to dictatorship or tyranny, thus focusing on opportunities for the people to control their leaders and to oust them without the need for a revolution.[3]

Several variants of democracy exist, but there are two basic forms, both of which concern how the whole body of eligible citizens executes its will. One form of democracy is direct democracy, in which eligible citizens have direct and active participation in the decision making of the government. In most modern democracies, the whole body of eligible citizens remain the sovereign power but political power is exercised indirectly through elected representatives; this is called representative democracy. The concept of representative democracy arose largely from ideas and institutions that developed during the European Middle Ages, the Age of Enlightenment, and the American and French Revolutions.[4]
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 05:48 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

You're going back in history on a term that is now established to mean "equal rights of all citizens."

Wickopedia is not the final arbitrer of the definition of words.

Moreover, I know of no country wherein all citizens have exactly equal rights. Here, for example, in laws governing employment, workers of a favored minority or beyond a specified age have rights to external review of dismissal or failure at promotion and special access to favorable review standards in tort actions. That's not equal rights.

More to the point, the Paletinian population of the West Bank and Gaza are not citizens of Israel, even though for most of the past 45 years Israel has governed their daily lives. So that, even by the Wicki standards you propose above, Israel's oppression of the non-citizen population of the occupied territories would not disqualify them as a democracy.

It's "Ready, Aim, Fire" not "Ready, Fire, Aim"
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 06:36 pm
@georgeob1,
No country has real equal rights, but most citizens of democracies have more freedoms and opportunities.

Israel is a de facto occupier of the West Bank and Gaza; that's also found in Wiki.

If you have problems with Wiki's definitions, please provide a credible source that refutes what Wiki says. Saying they are "not the final arbiter of words" isn't saying much without any credible challenge to the contrary.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2012 06:46 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Nonsense. There are many better sources than Wicki for the definition and etomology of words. That's common knowledge, and only one who is both addicted to the internet and ignorant of the language would ask for a web site identifier as the only way to prove this point.

Furthermore your logic is defective. We agree that Israel is the occupier of the West Bank, but that doesn't prevent it from being a democracy. Indeed since the population of the West Bank are not citizens of Israel, that fact does not, by Wicki's own definition, preclude Israel from being a democracy. The definition (silly as it is) calls only for equal treatment of citizens for a nation to be classified as a democracy.

Again, it's "Ready, Aim, Fire", not "Ready, Fire, Aim"
 

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