14
   

Two bad moments for Romney in second debate

 
 
Joe Nation
 
  3  
Reply Wed 17 Oct, 2012 01:04 pm
Apropos of nothing: The Facebook Poll ~ who won?
Romney 20, 348 44%
Obama 25396 55%

Joe(Same as election day, I hope)Nation
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Oct, 2012 02:56 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
How about some specifics Frank?



Max, not sure of what “specifics” you want, but if you mean specifics of Romney holding his own…well…

On the economy, with Obama defending the indefensible, Romney looked great. The challenger always looks good when the economy is not great…and our economy is not in good condition.

When discussing unemployment, Romney came up with lots of statistics that show Obama has not met his promises in that area.

When discussing the deficit, Romney came up with lots of statistics to show that Obama has not even come close to meeting his promises.

When Romney delivered his version of the “are you better off now than you were four years ago”…(“I think you know better”) it was devastating…and Obama had to hide from it.

But overall, as I said earlier, Obama came out in front…and did marvelously better than the first debate.

I seriously doubt any of the stuff discussed will be used by undecided voters (whom I do not think are truly undecided) to veer one way or the other. The debates seem mostly geared to solidifying the base of each man.

Afterthought: I think Romney’s base is more determined and loyal than Obama’s base. Significant parts of Obama’s base seem almost in tatters. In my opinion, Obama could blow the doors off of Romney...and not see a surge in his base support.

Another afterthought: Bill Clinton could blow the doors off both Romney and Obama in debate...while getting blown! Neither of these guys is a stellar debater.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Oct, 2012 03:10 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank,

My thesis is that the two moments of this debate I have outlined are pivotal. They deal with key constituencies in this election and are both clear moments with the ability to change minds or least get people who were tuning out to get to the polls (at this point motivating your base is more important than squabbling over the few truly undecided voters).

Your points about unemployment and the deficit could be counter-examples. But I think Obama won the deficit argument (i.e. "sketchy deal" and "math doesn't add up"), and the unemployment argument is old hat. I don't think either of these had nearly the same impact.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Oct, 2012 04:31 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
They deal with key constituencies in this election and are both clear moments with the ability to change minds or least get people who were tuning out to get to the polls (at this point motivating your base is more important than squabbling over the few truly undecided voters).


I agree wholeheartedly that motivating the base is more important than squabbling over the few truly undecided voters.

Quote:
Your points about unemployment and the deficit could be counter-examples. But I think Obama won the deficit argument...


Not sure if you are just kidding here...or if you truly think that. The "deficit argument" was that Obama promised to decrease the deficit...but he actually increased it (as any intelligent, reasonable person expected.) How could you possibly argue that he won that? And the fact that he lost that point is why I included it in my response to you.





Quote:
(i.e. "sketchy deal" and "math doesn't add up"), and the unemployment argument is old hat.


You may think the "unemployment argument" is old hat...but the people who are unemployed think it is a huge deal. Obama promised to cut unemployment. He hasn't. That is why I included it in my response to you.


Quote:
I don't think either of these had nearly the same impact.


I understand that, Max...but I respectfully disagree. I think the items I mentioned will matter to the general public much, much more than the two you cited in the OP.
Region Philbis
 
  5  
Reply Wed 17 Oct, 2012 05:10 pm

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x336/RegionPhilbis/BFOW_zpsc61515de.jpg
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Oct, 2012 05:27 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
No matter which of these guys wins...the economy will not get appreciably better during the next four years
Pardon me if I file this under "Bold statements he hopes noone remembers". Kinda like Hawkee who goes out on limbs predicting stuff and then has to eat half of it.

Ill believe PAul Krugman a bit bvecause he called the economy's turnaround based upon stimulus spending and a slight increase injobs followed by a slowly bouying building industry.

Hes got some chops, (and a Nobel prize)

All the EU countries that tried fiscal "starvation" are now in it deeper and deeper and arent looking too healthy without Germany , France, and several other countries bailing them out. (All the PIGGS)
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 17 Oct, 2012 05:29 pm
@Region Philbis,
Region Philbis wrote:


http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x336/RegionPhilbis/BFOW_zpsc61515de.jpg


Awesome!!!
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Oct, 2012 06:58 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Did you even watch the debate Frank? Because it sure seems like you aren't talking about the debate I saw last night.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Oct, 2012 07:02 pm

0 Replies
 
snood
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Oct, 2012 07:11 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I think you're wrong about Obama's chances in the election. And I think you're wrong about the economy having to crash before it gets better - I think there will be steady upswing in a second Obama term.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2012 04:57 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5138625)
Quote:
Quote:
No matter which of these guys wins...the economy will not get appreciably better during the next four years

Pardon me if I file this under "Bold statements he hopes noone remembers". Kinda like Hawkee who goes out on limbs predicting stuff and then has to eat half of it.

Ill believe PAul Krugman a bit bvecause he called the economy's turnaround based upon stimulus spending and a slight increase injobs followed by a slowly bouying building industry.

Hes got some chops, (and a Nobel prize)




I remember a day many years ago when my sister as a young teen was going on and on about a musical group. To shut her up, I told her, "Jesus Christ, give it a break. A year from now you will not even remember the lead singers name. Neither will almost anyone else."

The musical group was The Beatles.

I was wrong (was I ever!)

If I am wrong about what I said about the economy, I will do what I do whenever I am wrong. I will simply acknowledge I was wrong. It happens. When the day comes where you are wrong on something, you'll realize it.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  4  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2012 04:59 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5139181)
Did you even watch the debate Frank? Because it sure seems like you aren't talking about the debate I saw last night.


I watched the debate from beginning to end. I have been reading conservative pundits and bloggers talking about how Romney won almost every point...and liberal pundits and bloggers talking about how Obama won almost ever point.

Me...I saw what I mentioned earlier; both sides having good moments and both sides having bad moments.

Sorry you are having a problem with that, Max.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2012 05:02 am
@snood,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5138625)
I think you're wrong about Obama's chances in the election. And I think you're wrong about the economy having to crash before it gets better - I think there will be steady upswing in a second Obama term.


I hope you are correct about Obama being elected, Snood. I hope I am dead wrong. I think we are in a heap of trouble if it goes the other way.

I hope you correct about the economy, but I would bet money that any improvement will be very temporary...and that the economy will have to tank in order to motivate our leaders to make the adjustments needed to get the economy truly sound again.

But make no mistake about it, Snood...this is one time where I am rooting for you enthusiastically rather than for myself.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2012 06:44 am
@H2O MAN,
Actually, H2O...this is very funny. Gonna borrow it and publish it in another forum where I post. A little humor goes a long way...and this one is classic.

Very Happy
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2012 07:08 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank,

I suppose your comments on the deficit part of the debate are what I have the hardest time accepting. It seems obvious to me that in this debate Obama handily won the argument on the deficit including his forceful rejection of tax cuts for the wealthy, and his debunking of Romney math.

You are, of course, welcome to your own opinion.

However, it is an error to choose balance over facts.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2012 07:10 am
And of course, in a few days we are going to get poll results on women and Hispanic voters.

Based on my viewing of this debate, I predict that the gender gap will increase again and the percentage Hispanic voters favoring Obama will again increase.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2012 07:17 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5139726)
Frank,

I suppose your comments on the deficit part of the debate are what I have the hardest time accepting. It seems obvious to me that in this debate Obama handily won the argument on the deficit including his forceful rejection of tax cuts for the wealthy, and his debunking of Romney math.

You are, of course, welcome to your own opinion.

However, it is an error to choose balance over facts.


Max, you seem to be closing your mind to what was actually contested in the discussion of the deficit during the debate. There were two parts...and one of those parts was Romney saying that Obama had promised to reduce the deficit by the end of his first four years. Here is what he said:

"I am pledging to cut the deficit we inherited in half by the end of my first term in office. Now, this will not be easy. It will require us to make difficult decisions and face challenges we've long neglected. But I refuse to leave our children with a debt that they cannot repay, and that means taking responsibility right now, in this administration, for getting our spending under control."

HE DID NOT DO IT...and Romney pointed that out.

Those ARE facts, Max. Obama promised to cut the deficit by half during his first four years in office (a silly, unrealistic promise) AND HE DID NOT DO IT.

Romney mentioned this...and Obama had no answer for it, because FACTS simply show that he did not do it.

It is an error, Max, to choose balance over facts.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2012 07:19 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
And of course, in a few days we are going to get poll results on women and Hispanic voters.

Based on my viewing of this debate, I predict that the gender gap will increase again and the percentage Hispanic voters favoring Obama will again increase.


Yes, Max...and no matter how it goes, it will not impact on my comment that both Romney and Obama had good moments and bad moments during the debate.

I do not understand why you are contesting that. Partisans of both sides willingly acknowledge that both Romney and Obama had good moments and bad moments during the debate.

You seem to think the two you picked out were the alpha and omega of the situation. I don't. We disagree.
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2012 07:22 am
@Frank Apisa,
What do you think was the best moment for each candidate?

Joe(the one that 'won' it for him)Nation
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2012 07:45 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank, where the heck is that quote from? That wasn't from the debate. You seem to want to bring in a larger argument here, bringing in quotes that weren't even part of the debate.

I am talking only about the debate that happened on Tuesday night. What happened on Tuesday was effective for Obama in ways among key constituencies (in a way that can't be said about Romney).

If you want to argue that point, anything that happened outside the debate is irrelevant to this discussion unless it is directly connected to something said in the debate. If you have a specific quote from the debate that you think isn't backed up by facts, then you would have a point. But this thread isn't a general discussion on the campaign.

Here is an actual quote from the actual debate on Tuesday that we are discussing. Obama came out quite well in this particular argument.

Quote:

My philosophy on taxes has been simple. And that is, I want to give middle-class families and folks who are striving to get into the middle-class some relief. Because they have been hit hard over the last decade. Over the last 15, over the last 20 years.

So four years ago I stood on a stage just like this one. Actually it was a town hall, and I said I would cut taxes for middle- class families, and that's what I've done, by $3,600.00. I said I would cut taxes for small businesses, who are the drivers and engines of growth. And we've cut them 18 times. And I want to continue those tax cuts for middle-class families, and for small business.

But what I've also said is, if we're serious about reducing the deficit, if this is genuinely a moral obligation to the next generation, then in addition to some tough spending cuts, we've also got to make sure that the wealthy do a little bit more.

So what I've said is, your first $250,000.00 worth of income, no change. And that means 98 percent of American families, 97 percent of small businesses, they will not see a tax increase. I'm ready to sign that bill right now. The only reason it's not happening is because Governor Romney's allies in Congress have held the 98 percent hostage because they want tax breaks for the top 2 percent.

But what I've also says is for above $250,000, we can go back to the tax rates we had when Bill Clinton was president. We created 23 million new jobs. That's part of what took us from deficits to surplus. It will be good for our economy and it will be good for job creation.

Now, Governor Romney has a different philosophy. He was on 60 Minutes just two weeks ago and he was asked: Is it fair for somebody like you, making $20 million a year, to pay a lower tax rate than a nurse or a bus driver, somebody making $50,000 year? And he said, "Yes, I think that's fair." Not only that, he said, "I think that's what grows the economy."

Well, I fundamentally disagree with that. I think what grows the economy is when you get that tax credit that we put in place for your kids going to college. I think that grows the economy. I think what grows the economy is when we make sure small businesses are getting a tax credit for hiring veterans who fought for our country. That grows our economy.

So we just have a different theory. And when Governor Romney stands here, after a year of campaigning, when during a Republican primary he stood on stage and said "I'm going to give tax cuts" -- he didn't say tax rate cuts, he said "tax cuts to everybody," including the top 1 percent, you should believe him because that's been his history.

And that's exactly the kind of top-down economics that is not going to work if we want a strong middle class and an economy that's striving for everybody.



 

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