23
   

Does freedom of speech excuse preaching hate?

 
 
Irishk
 
  2  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2012 12:31 pm
Bill Maher goes on anti-Islam rants from time to time. Usually after an event such as the cartoon fiasco or the Koran burnings. He does it in his stand-up routine, but also on his TV show with various panel members.

He's mentioned a couple of times that "the killers in Gitmo should be fed cheese-filled sausages and if they don't like it, then don't eat, "You won't be missed".

He also said that if we ever find the remains of a Muslim suicide bomber, we should bury them 'wrong' (with a hooker and a bottle of Jack Daniels, facing Barney's).

He told Keith Ellison (a Congressman who converted to Islam) that the Koran is a hate-filled book. Ellison told him he was just reading a wrong translation (lol).

Maher: "There is one religion in the world that kills you when you disagree with them and they say, "Look, we're a religion of peace and if you disagree we'll f*ck'n cut your head off". And nobody, or very few people, calls them on it!"

"It's like a dad who's a violent drunk and beats his kids. You don't blame the kids because they set Dad off, you blame the dad because he's a violent drunk."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nS5OV589vA
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2012 02:03 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

The international Arms trade has a vested interest in war, and it's a very powerful lobbying influence on both sides of the Atlantic. It's a pernicious influence.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krupp

WWI killed how many hundreds of millions, and there wasn't an "international Arms trade," like today. My point being that you are putting the emphasis on the wrong sy-lla-ble, in my opinion. If there is a war, which some countries want for lebensraum, or whatever, naturally [Foofie says, "DUH!] some company(ies) are making money out of it! Me thinks you are demonizing capitalism, and the demon is human nature, in my opinion.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2012 02:09 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

I do think it's priceless that you feel that if I've likened you to a dog, it's the dog that's been insulted.


Because the dog belonged to an English king. In a bygone time, the king also owned all the Jews in the kingdom (aka, "the king's Jews"). So, I am just sort of identifying with the English kings, in my own small way.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2012 02:17 pm
@Foofie,
I'm not totally sure, Foofie, why you only mention Krupp here. But if you were interested in the history of international arms trade, Rachel Stohl and Suzette Grillot wrote a good book about it (The International Arms Trade,
Volume 7 of War and Conflict in the Modern World, Cambridge, 2009).
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2012 02:18 pm
@Foofie,
Not over here, Jews came back to live in England, (after Edward I kicked them all out,) when Cromwell was in charge.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2012 02:20 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

I'm not totally sure, Foofie, why you only mention Krupp here. But if you were interested in the history of international arms trade, Rachel Stohl and Suzette Grillot wrote a good book about it (The International Arms Trade,
Volume 7 of War and Conflict in the Modern World, Cambridge, 2009).


Considering Germany was a real contender, and initial belligerent, in two 20th century world wars, I thought the homegrown version of arms manufacturers should not be ignored, as the cause of many, many deaths.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2012 02:24 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
Considering Germany was a real contender, and initial belligerent, in two 20th century world wars, I thought the homegrown version of arms manufacturers should not be ignored, as the cause of many, many deaths.
Sorry, my bad. I'd thought you were referring to international arms trade.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2012 02:24 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Not over here, Jews came back to live in England, (after Edward I kicked them all out,) when Cromwell was in charge.


I never understood why Cromwell had a penchant for killing Irish, yet he let Jews back into England? He wanted to build up the economy of England? No one else around to sell the villagers notions and potions?
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Sep, 2012 12:03 pm
Some magazine in France published cartoons of nekkid Mohammad today.

IzzythePush wrote:
Is it time for America France to introduce legislation banning the preaching of hate similar to laws in Europe?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Sep, 2012 12:21 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
Me thinks you are demonizing capitalism, and the demon is human nature, in my opinion.


Though when you combine capitalism and US human nature you end up with a particularly pernicious and dangerous combination, right, Foofie?
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Sep, 2012 12:42 pm
This article makes a good point.
Quote:
The New York Times
September 18, 2012
Look in Your Mirror
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

On Monday, David D. Kirkpatrick, the Cairo bureau chief for The Times, quoted one of the Egyptian demonstrators outside the American Embassy, Khaled Ali, as justifying last week’s violent protests by declaring: “We never insult any prophet — not Moses, not Jesus — so why can’t we demand that Muhammad be respected?” Mr. Ali, a 39-year-old textile worker, was holding up a handwritten sign in English that read: “Shut Up America.” “Obama is the president, so he should have to apologize!”

I read several such comments from the rioters in the press last week, and I have a big problem with them. I don’t like to see anyone’s faith insulted, but we need to make two things very clear — more clear than President Obama’s team has made them. One is that an insult — even one as stupid and ugly as the anti-Islam video on YouTube that started all of this — does not entitle people to go out and attack embassies and kill innocent diplomats. That is not how a proper self-governing people behave. There is no excuse for it. It is shameful. And, second, before demanding an apology from our president, Mr. Ali and the young Egyptians, Tunisians, Libyans, Yemenis, Pakistanis, Afghans and Sudanese who have been taking to the streets might want to look in the mirror — or just turn on their own televisions. They might want to look at the chauvinistic bile that is pumped out by some of their own media — on satellite television stations and Web sites or sold in sidewalk bookstores outside of mosques — insulting Shiites, Jews, Christians, Sufis and anyone else who is not a Sunni, or fundamentalist, Muslim. There are people in their countries for whom hating “the other” has become a source of identity and a collective excuse for failing to realize their own potential.

The Middle East Media Research Institute, or Memri, was founded in 1998 in Washington by Yigal Carmon, a former Israeli government adviser on counterterrorism, “to bridge the language gap between the Middle East and the West by monitoring, translating and studying Arab, Iranian, Urdu and Pashtu media, schoolbooks, and religious sermons.” What I respect about Memri is that it translates not only the ugly stuff but the courageous liberal, reformist Arab commentators as well. I asked Memri for a sampler of the hate-filled videos that appear regularly on Arab/Muslim mass media. Here are some:

ON CHRISTIANS Hasan Rahimpur Azghadi of the Iranian Supreme Council for Cultural Revolution: Christianity is “a reeking corpse, on which you have to constantly pour eau de cologne and perfume, and wash it in order to keep it clean.” http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1528.htm — July 20, 2007.

Sheik Al-Khatib al-Baghdadi: It is permissible to spill the blood of the Iraqi Christians — and a duty to wage jihad against them. http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/5200.htm — April 14, 2011.

Abd al-Aziz Fawzan al-Fawzan, a Saudi professor of Islamic law, calls for “positive hatred” of Christians. Al-Majd TV (Saudi Arabia), http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/992.htm — Dec. 16, 2005.

ON SHIITES The Egyptian Cleric Muhammad Hussein Yaaqub: “Muslim Brotherhood Presidential Candidate Mohamed Morsi told me that the Shiites are more dangerous to Islam than the Jews.” www.memritv.org/clip/en/3466.htm — June 13, 2012.

The Egyptian Cleric Mazen al-Sirsawi: “If Allah had not created the Shiites as human beings, they would have been donkeys.” http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/3101.htm — Aug. 7, 2011.

The Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan video series: “The Shiite is a Nasl [Race/Offspring] of Jews.” http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/51/6208.htm — March 21, 2012.

ON JEWS Article on the Muslim Brotherhood’s Web site praises jihad against America and the Jews: “The Descendants of Apes and Pigs.” http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/51/6656.htm — Sept. 7, 2012.

The Pakistani cleric Muhammad Raza Saqib Mustafai: “When the Jews are wiped out, the world would be purified and the sun of peace would rise on the entire world.” http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/51/6557.htm — Aug. 1, 2012.

Dr. Ismail Ali Muhammad, a senior Al-Azhar scholar: The Jews, “a source of evil and harm in all human societies.” http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/51/6086.htm — Feb. 14, 2012.

ON SUFIS A shrine venerating a Sufi Muslim saint in Libya has been partly destroyed, the latest in a series of attacks blamed on ultraconservative Salafi Islamists. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19380083 — Aug. 26, 2012.

As a Jew who has lived and worked in the Muslim world, I know that these expressions of intolerance are only one side of the story and that there are deeply tolerant views and strains of Islam espoused and practiced there as well. Theirs are complex societies.

That’s the point. America is a complex society, too. But let’s cut the nonsense that this is just our problem and the only issue is how we clean up our act. That Cairo protester is right: We should respect the faiths and prophets of others. But that runs both ways. Our president and major newspapers consistently condemn hate speech against other religions. How about yours?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/19/opinion/friedman-look-in-your-mirror.html?hp
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Sep, 2012 12:50 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
One is that an insult — even one as stupid and ugly as the anti-Islam video on YouTube that started all of this — does not entitle people to go out and attack embassies and kill innocent diplomats. That is not how a proper self-governing people behave. There is no excuse for it. It is shameful.


Really, FF, what possibly could the good point be? Thomas L Friedman is either mouthing another incredibly hypocritical comment because he is an American who is either woefully ignorant of his own country's past and present or he is being willfully deceptive.

I think it's the latter because a person in his business should really know better.

I think that you know better too. What's your excuse for your patent dishonesty?
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Sep, 2012 12:59 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
Me thinks you are demonizing capitalism, and the demon is human nature, in my opinion.


Though when you combine capitalism and US human nature you end up with a particularly pernicious and dangerous combination, right, Foofie?


In my opinion, you are 110% incorrect. Your heart might be in the right place; however, do not demonize capitalism, since it is a system that motivates people to build civilization for the benefit of future generations. You see, many wealthy people want to think that future generations of their family (aka, "dynasty") will have a good life. And, us little chickens benefit from that better civilization with all sorts of new and better mouse traps, so to speak.

If you want to end wars, just end the divisions between us. Promote one world religion, perhaps. Promote marrying out of one's race, perhaps. Promote one universal language, perhaps. Promote the U.S. expanding its states to include many other lands, perhaps.

But, capitalism is the most natural of concepts going back to the time when one individual would give another a tent for a goat and a chicken. The chicken was the profit, since the usual trade for a tent was a goat; however, someone really needed a tent, and therefore the price of a tent went up by one chicken.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Sep, 2012 01:30 pm
@JTT,
Come on, JTT, Friedman is making a specific point in that column, and that specific point doesn't include mentioning all of the reasons for the current unrest and anti-American feeling, that you seem to feel are obligatory to mention all of the time. So what?

He's not being dishonest, he's simply focusing on one thing in one column, which does not indicate a tendency on his part (and definitely not on my part) to mislead regarding other factors or issues. The point he's making is apparently something that you consider irrelevant, or beside-the-point, in your view of the situation. Again, so what? Why should his focus, or mine, always have to match yours?

What is your objection to Friedman's pointing his finger at hypocrisy coming from the other side? Do you disagree with his actual point, or his evidence in support of it? Or do you just think he should be talking about something else?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Sep, 2012 02:03 pm
@Irishk,
Satire is not classed as hate speech, although I would question the timing.
Irishk
 
  3  
Reply Wed 19 Sep, 2012 02:20 pm
@izzythepush,
Now if we can only get the extremists to see cartoons of naked Mo as satire.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Sep, 2012 02:40 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
And, second, before demanding an apology from our president, Mr. Ali and the young Egyptians, Tunisians, Libyans, Yemenis, Pakistanis, Afghans and Sudanese who have been taking to the streets might want to look in the mirror — or just turn on their own televisions. They might want to look at the chauvinistic bile that is pumped out by some of their own media — on satellite television stations and Web sites or sold in sidewalk bookstores outside of mosques — insulting Shiites, Jews, Christians, Sufis and anyone else who is not a Sunni, or fundamentalist, Muslim. There are people in their countries for whom hating “the other” has become a source of identity and a collective excuse for failing to realize their own potential.

OMG! a liberal contradicting one of the main planks of victim culture...the one that says that all those who claim to be victims are entitled to have their own bad acts excused unquestioned Shocked
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Sep, 2012 03:02 pm
@hawkeye10,
"Victim culture?" WTF? Your screws loose, fella.

FYI, Americans are some of the hardest working on this planet. That's a fact, AND that includes liberals.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Sep, 2012 03:51 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
Satire is not classed as hate speech,
although I would question the timing.
Timing is IMPORTANT, qua satire.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Wed 19 Sep, 2012 04:29 pm
@Irishk,
I know, and I don't think it's very prudent releasing such images right now, but there is a difference between likening the current behaviour of certain protesters to Mohammed mooning, and deliberately setting out to cause distress and stir up hatred.

I don't think the protesters will see it like that though.
0 Replies
 
 

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