35
   

Does freedom of speech excuse preaching hate?

 
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 12:22 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
Although the suspicion is that once Assange is in Sweden he'll be whisked of to America to face the death penalty.


Nonsense. There is no fear that he'll face the death penalty if extradited to the US.

He could not be extradited without the approval of both the UK and Sweden, and neither will approve extradition without a guarantee that he won't be subject to the death penalty.

On the other hand, if he ends up in South America thumbing his nose at us, a drone missile strike may be in his future.
0 Replies
 
tsarstepan
 
  2  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 12:23 pm
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

Would the UK have imprisoned Terry Jones? After all, Pakistan imprisoned a 14 year old girl for blasphemy. Is this what societies should be doing?

According to Izzy, apparently so. It doesn't matter that the 14 year old girl was framed. That kind of stuff is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is that certain hyperviolent and hypersensitive individuals/groups get their form of justice through violent action (though technically its more like injustice that these groups pursue).
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=160797062
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 12:48 pm
@wandeljw,
I think that most countries have different criminal codes. Some even have different legal systems.

In some countries you get arrested quite often for something which is nothing or a minor crime in others.

Some countries so have a larger prison population than others.

I think that in the UK you only can get imprisoned after a verdict by a court.

In Europe, a religious insult is forbidden in Andorra, Cyprus, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Spain, Finland, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Italy, Lithuania, Norway, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Russian Federation, Slovakia, Switzerland, Turkey and Ukraine.

The problem wasn't that someone was making the the "movie", I think.
At least, it only became a problem after it was "published".
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 12:49 pm
@tsarstepan,
That's a really snide way of trying to associate me with the Pakistani blasphemy case, which has nothing to do with this. We don't prosecute people for blasphemy, and to make a quantum leap from criticising hate speech to imposing Shariah law shows just how sensationalist and hysterical some of the posters are getting.

I see resident Islamophobe and neo Nazi Oralboy is spreading his own lies and hate. It's a shame I can't have a frank discussion with the more sober members on the implication of shouting fire in a theatre.

Regarding Terry Jones, and what would have happened were he on British soil at the time, see the following.

Quote:
The case has been withdrawn against a BNP candidate for the Welsh assembly election who had been accused of being filmed burning a copy of the Koran.

Sion Owens, aged 41, was charged with a public order offence on Saturday.

When he appeared at Swansea Magistrates Court the Crown Prosecution Service said it was withdrawing the case against him.

But it said that investigations would continue and that "almost certainly other proceedings will ensue."

Mr Owens, from Bonymaen, Swansea, appeared in court from custody.

A BNP candidate for the South Wales West regional list, he was arrested on Friday evening when the force was passed a video recording showing a man burning the Koran.

He was charged on Saturday evening under the Public Order Act.

Joanne Shannon, another BNP candidate also arrested in connection with the incident, had already been released on police bail.

A BNP spokesperson said both would still be candidates in the assembly election on 5 May.

CPS prosecutor Bryn Hurford told Mr Owens to be in "no doubt" that investigations into his actions were continuing and that "almost certainly other proceedings will ensue."

Speaking outside the court, Mr Owens solicitor, Rachel Elimelech, said he was "pleased" and "very relieved to be released from custody".


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-13032513

Quote:
A student jailed for posting offensive and racist comments on Twitter following footballer Fabrice Muamba's on-pitch collapse has been banned from university for the rest of the year.

Liam Stacey, who has been released from prison after serving half of his 56-day sentence, was told not to return to Swansea University's campus.

Speaking after leaving prison, 21-year-old Stacey expressed deep sorrow for what he had done, saying he had been drunk, and spoke of his shock that his abuse had gone "nationwide". He said his comments had been "disgusting".

Stacey sparked an outcry following Muamba's cardiac arrest in March when he tweeted: "LOL, **** Muamba. He's dead." Other Twitter users immediately criticised Stacey, prompting him to post further offensive and racist comments. He branded some people who censured him as "wogs" and told one to "go pick some cotton". Stacey was quickly traced by police, arrested and jailed by magistrates in Swansea.

He was also suspended from university, where he was a final-year biology student. The university has now imposed a full suspension until the end of the academic year. Stacey, from Pontypridd, south Wales, will be allowed to sit his final exams as an external candidate next year. But even if successful he will not be invited to the graduation ceremony.

A university spokesman said: "We take the actions of this student very seriously, which is why he is no longer part of our campus community."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/may/22/muamba-twitter-abuse-student-sorry
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 12:54 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

That's a really snide way of trying to associate me with the Pakistani blasphemy case, which has nothing to do with this.
Exactly.
And Pakistan isn't the UK. Or the USA. Or Libya. Or ...
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 12:58 pm
"Does freedom of speech excuse preaching hate?"

No, it doesn't excuse it. However, it does require some degree of toleration of it. One person's view of "hate speech" is another's startement of relevant truth. Not all so called "hate speech" is really motivated by hatred. Indeed we can't relably know the real inner motives of others, and tyranny begins when we start to make presumptive judgments about it.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 12:59 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Over here, there's just been a new comedy launched. This is a far healthier way of dealing with the Moslem community.

Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 01:16 pm
Romney's behavior in all this is simply inexcusable. Couldn't be more craven or pathetic.

He's lying about the sequence of events, politicizing the thing for his own gain, the media is calling him out on lying about it, and he's simply ignoring it and continuing to do it. The guy is really rolling the dice for his campaign on this bullshit attempt - and I predict it will fail completely.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  3  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 01:21 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

I think that most countries have different criminal codes. Some even have different legal systems.

In some countries you get arrested quite often for something which is nothing or a minor crime in others.

Some countries so have a larger prison population than others.

I think that in the UK you only can get imprisoned after a verdict by a court.

In Europe, a religious insult is forbidden in Andorra, Cyprus, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Spain, Finland, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Italy, Lithuania, Norway, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Russian Federation, Slovakia, Switzerland, Turkey and Ukraine.

The problem wasn't that someone was making the the "movie", I think.
At least, it only became a problem after it was "published".


True, but my post referred to Irishk's question to izzythepush. Izzythepush keeps saying that America should follow UK's example. Irishk wanted to know if this means that the UK would imprison someone for that behavior.

There is a lot of behavior that is hateful, but should the state punish all hateful behavior?
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 01:25 pm
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

There is a lot of behavior that is hateful, but should the state punish all hateful behavior?
That certainly depends on various ... here, in Germany, the state must do so, since our constitution says:
Quote:
Article 1 [Human dignity]

(1) Human dignity shall be inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all state authority.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 01:27 pm
Quote:
Romney’s “Lehman Moment”?
By Daniel Larison • September 12, 2012, 1:28 PM

Scott Galupo discerns panic in the Romney campaign’s shameless opportunism last night and this morning:

Before yesterday, the idea that the Romney campaign was “desperate” would have struck me as myopic and overexcited. Now it seems unmistakably clear. The Romney campaign knows it’s losing.

The extraordinary thing is that Romney may have been losing yesterday, but he wasn’t being widely ridiculed and attacked for having practically disqualified himself from consideration. When senior Republican foreign policy professionals start referring to this as his “Lehman moment,” likening it to McCain’s mid-September meltdown in response to the financial crisis, we can see that Romney’s latest attempt to seize on an international event has done significant and possibly irreparable damage to his campaign. Most Americans may not sympathize with Romney’s more aggressive foreign policy, but they might have been willing to believe him to be competent and have good judgment. This blunder undermines his claims to both of these.

Romney has made many foreign policy blunders before now, but this is the only one that has provoked such swift, harsh, and near-unanimous criticism. The most incredible part is that all of this has been self-inflicted. Romney and his campaign volunteered for this by inserting themselves into the story. If it were simply the other campaign or Democratic partisans that were hammering Romney on this, it wouldn’t be any different from previous mistakes, but the backlash hasn’t been limited to his partisan foes. The dishonesty of the original Romney statement and the gall of his press conference this morning have combined to create serious doubts about his judgment and to confirm the impression that there are no limits to his opportunism.

As a practical matter, this episode shows how useless Romney’s main foreign policy theme has been. According to Romney, Obama “apologizes for” America, and Romney won’t. He tried to shoehorn the embassy attacks into this frame, and it didn’t work for at least two reasons. First, Obama didn’t respond to the attacks by apologizing for anything or sympathizing with the attackers, as Romney’s original statement charged, so it was blatantly false. Romney’s position that the U.S. should never “apologize for” American values is almost beside the point. Would this have made any difference to the people assaulting the embassy in Cairo or the consulate in Benghazi? Would the attacks not have happened if Romney had been conducting his own brand of thoroughly unapologetic activist foreign policy? It seems unlikely. Romney might have legitimately questioned the security arrangements for the consulate, for example, or he could have made the fair observation that Libya’s new government is very weak and Libya as a whole has serious security problems, but that wouldn’t have translated into the easy and satisfying point-scoring that Romney seems to prefer. It wouldn’t have fit his ready-made scheme of Obama-as-Carter, but it would have spared him of most of the ridicule he’s receiving now. Now instead of portraying Obama as Carter, he has presented himself as the bumbling McCain figure of 2012.


http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/romneys-lehman-moment/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=romneys-lehman-moment

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 01:33 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Let's try this again. Freedom of speech is about defending speech.
It isn't about "spreading" speech or "promoting" speech.

Freedom of speech means that people can express whatever they feel is true.
Thay can freely propagate fiction, too.



maxdancona wrote:
Once you start telling people what they can and can't say, you no longer have "freedom of speech".
Clearly, u understand the idea.

It means that government has NO JURISDICTION to interfere.

FREEDOM is made out of the incapacity of government.

FREEDOM = vacuum of government power.

Jurisdiction of government and Individual LIBERTY are INVERSELY PROPORTIONAL.





David
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  3  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 01:36 pm
bullcrap. One of the functions of GOOD governnment is to protect people's freedom.
0 Replies
 
tsarstepan
 
  0  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 01:47 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Over here, there's just been a new comedy launched. This is a far healthier way of dealing with the Moslem community.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMESKXubTJo[/youtube]

That looks like cheesy shite on a moldy roll. I suppose if a radical group in Egypt blew up the British Embassy to protest this eyeroll tripe, you'd too be fine with that?
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  2  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 01:51 pm
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:
True, but my post referred to Irishk's question to izzythepush. Izzythepush keeps saying that America should follow UK's example. Irishk wanted to know if this means that the UK would imprison someone for that behavior.

There is a lot of behavior that is hateful, but should the state punish all hateful behavior?
From what Izzy provided, I assume following the UK's example means we'd take the offender into custody and then let him go. Seems like a waste of resources unless they're just trying to 'scare' someone.

"I saw Goody Proctor with the devil! I saw Goody Osburn with the devil!".
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 02:16 pm
@wandeljw,
I'm not bothered one way or other what America does, so long as it doesn't impact on us.

I was just putting the topic up for discussion, a bit taken aback by all the vitriol though.
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 02:18 pm
@tsarstepan,
tsarstepan wrote:
That looks like cheesy shite on a moldy roll. I suppose if a radical group in Egypt blew up the British Embassy to protest this eyeroll tripe, you'd too be fine with that?


Now you're being hysterical. I never said I was fine with your Embassy being attacked.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 02:19 pm
@Irishk,
Have you read both posts?

We don't prosecute without adequate evidence.

wandeljw
 
  2  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 02:35 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

I'm not bothered one way or other what America does, so long as it doesn't impact on us.

I was just putting the topic up for discussion, a bit taken aback by all the vitriol though.


I realize now that you were making a comparison for discussion purposes. I apologize for jumping on that.

Still, in the same comparative discussion vein, shouldn't we worry about going to extremes such as in the case of the 14 year old Pakistani girl?
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 02:46 pm
@wandeljw,
What is happening to the 14 year old girl is terrible, but I don't see why having anti hate speech legislation should lead to something like that. It hasn't happened over here.

With respect to the assaults on the embassies, it looks very much as if the Libyan assaults were a pre planned AlQaida operation, but the crowd that gathered in the Cairo protests were genuinely inflamed by the film.

There's always going to be a hardline element, and if you want to isolate and ultimately defeat that element you need get ordinary people to reject it.

In Kabul they shut down Youtube to stop people accessing the video. You've got the extremist Christians and extremist Moslems bouncing off one another in cyberspace, using each other to justify some pretty appalling things.
0 Replies
 
 

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