35
   

Does freedom of speech excuse preaching hate?

 
 
wandeljw
 
  2  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 08:09 am
Laws on the rights of individuals attempt to be neutral. Having a legal right does not excuse hateful behavior.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 08:11 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
If you don't know the American ambassador to Libya was killed yesterday, by a mob angry with the USA for allowing Terry Jones
(not of Monty Python, but the Koran burner) to distribute a film mocking the prophet Mohammed. If you've not seen any of it,
it's badly acted, chock-full of inaccuracies and seems to have no purpose other than to insult Moslems. Now another American
has died as a result of Terry Jones actions.
Tuff luck; he shud have had better defenses.
Presumably, he knew that ambassadors have been killed in the past
and will, presumably, be killed in the future. Extant ambassadors
can accept that risk, or select safer jobs. Thay can sell shoes.






izzythepush wrote:
Is it time
for America to introduce legislation banning
the preaching of hate similar to laws in Europe?
Izzy: it does not matter what "time" it is.
In America, IF legislation has any authority behind it
such authority derives from the Supreme Law of the Land,
which is the US Constitution, including its Bill of Rights.
If any legislation is in conflict therewith,
then that legislation is void, and of no legal effect.
As ice is made out of water, any authority of law
is CONSTITUTED of the Constitution.
If government perpetrated such an act of usurpation as u propose,
then government's legitimacy woud become fake, a hoax, like a snake oil salesman.

Americans r fully within their Constitutional rights to experience ANY emotion
of their choice (e.g., love, hate, fear, envy, bravery, JOY etc.)
and thay r fully entitled to express themselves
in regard to any of those. Americans r sovereign between the ears.
Government has NO jurisdiction there.





David
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 08:22 am
@OmSigDAVID,
It's a bit ironic that your country allows Terry Jones to publish lies and insults about Islam, but at the same time is trying to extradite Julian Assange (albeit in a rather roundabout way) for publishing the truth about American war crimes.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 08:30 am
@izzythepush,
Yes. But this freedom of speech is only valid for US-Americans.
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  3  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 08:34 am
@izzythepush,
Interesting. What would have happened if someone in the UK had made this 'movie'? Arrest and prison?

Is mocking allowed?
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 09:12 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

I'm not prohibited from telling the truth, but I can't make stuff up about groups of people I don't like.
But Terry Jones is telling the truth as he sees it. Isn't Westboro Baptist doing the same thing when they picket military funerals? Are you telling me that WB is strong the the US military and their families are the weak? WB and Terry Jones are the weak, not strong and powerful and the US military and the entire Islamic world are not weak and powerless. Freedom of speech protects the weak and the strong equally. Hate speech legislation might protect the weak in some cases but it also gives the strong a hammer to crush the weak when the weak steps out of the orthodox line.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 09:16 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

It's a bit ironic that your country allows Terry Jones to publish lies and insults about Islam, but at the same time is trying to extradite Julian Assange (albeit in a rather roundabout way) for publishing the truth about American war crimes.

Has Julian Assange been accused of any crime in the US? I think his lawyer asked about this last week.
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 09:19 am
Freedom os speech doesn't excuse anything, that's not the goal of assuring freedom of speech and of the press. It does protect preaching anything, other than inciting people to criminal behavior. This isn't rocket science.
0 Replies
 
Greatknight
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 10:58 am
@Irishk,
This was written after similar attempts few years ago
Quote:
A Renowned Muslim Scholar's Criticial Response to Recent Attempts to Defame the Prophet Muhammad through Cartoon Drawings and Accusations of Terrorism

[ In the Name of Allah, the All-Merciful, the Bestower of Mercy ]

All praises are due to Allah, and may Allah exalt the status of the Messenger of Allah, and that of his family and his companions, and may He grant them peace.

As for what follows:

Some newspapers and other forms of media have spread hurtful, vicious information that could only emanate from the jealous, arrogant enemies of Islam and its Prophet (may Allah raise his rank and grant him peace).

That conduct comprises a calumniation of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah and a distortion of his message by jealous individuals and Christian organizations, as well as envious and irresponsible columnists, like those who write for the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten.

Its writers mocked the best of Mankind and the most distinguished of the Messengers, Muhammad (may Allah raise his rank and grant him peace), the likes of whose nobility, honor, justice, and manners the earth has never known of. Neither has it known of a more complete and comprehensive message than his, nor a more just and merciful one.

It is a message that embraces belief in all of the prophets and messengers, honoring them and defending them from calumniation and defamation. It has also preserved an accurate history of the prophets, including Jesus and Moses. So whoever disbelieves in Muhammad and speaks of him in a derogatory manner has disbelieved in all of the prophets and disparaged all of them.

Recently, some uncivilized miscreants made fun of the Prophet, drawing various pictures of him. Twelve despicable pictures, one of them portrayed him (may Allah raise his rank and grant him peace) wearing a turban resembling a bomb on his head.

We say to these criminals and their envious supporters in Europe and America: You are blaming others for your very own crimes!

Let it be known that never did Muhammad (may Allah raise his rank and grant him peace), nor his righteous successors or any of his honorable companions, ever establish factories for even the most primitive of weapons, like swords and spears, let alone atomic bombs, long-range missiles, or any other weapon of mass destruction.

Never did Muhammad (may Allah raise his rank and grant him peace) build a single weapon factory. Rather, he was sent as a mercy for the entire creation, to guide all Mankind towards happiness in their worldly lives and in their hereafter, such that they fulfill their Creator’s right upon them, for it is He who created them to worship Him alone. Whoever rejects this is truly a criminal deserving punishment in this life and the next, by the Lord of all that exists, the Creator of this universe and its Master.

As for you O Westerners, claimants of civilization, you have constitutions and statutes that destroy upright moral character and permit all kinds of forbidden acts, the likes of fornication and homosexuality, as well as usury which destroys the economies of entire nations, and the eating of improperly slaughtered animals (dead meats) and pork, something that causes the loss of concern for women's values, and thus a man does not feel protective of his wife, sister, or daughter, and thus she fornicates with or intimately befriends whomever she pleases. These are some of the means which lead to ruin, and they have been prohibited in all of the prophetic messages.

As for bombs and all other weapons of destruction, war planes, tanks, and long-range missiles, you are the ones who engineered and manufactured them with your satanic minds that only think about transgression, animosity, oppression, attacking, tyranny, conquering entire races of people and enslaving them, spilling their blood, and usurping their natural resources. You think only about annihilating those who oppose you and stand in the way of your greedy aspirations, your oppression and spreading of hatred. All this wrapped up in the name of civilization, human rights, freedom, and justice!

All intelligent people know this about you. For your dark history is overflowing with uncivil and terrorist acts, a history recorded against you by both your enemies and allies alike.

Anyone who does not know this should read about your history and your occupation of numerous nations, or at least read the history and some horrible results of your two World Wars. For example, the number of fatalities in the First World War in Europe reached "More than 10 million, and they were the elite of their nations' youth. And more than twice this number had incurred serious injuries disabling them for the rest of their lives." [Refer to: At-Taareekh al-Mu'aasir: Uruubbaa minath-Thawratil-Fransiyyah ilal-Harbil-'Aalamiyyaith-Thaaniyah, p.505. (Lit: Recent History, Europe from the French Revolution to the Second World War)]

The number of soldiers killed in the Second World War reached: "17 million, along with another 18 million civilian fatalities - all of them killed within a period of only five and a half years. Experts have estimated that the military expenses alone reached $1.1 trillion, and that losses caused by the war reached the value of $2.1 trillion. Added to this are the number of entire cities destroyed, the amount of earth scorched, the agriculture that was flooded, and the factories and plantations that stopped production, not to mention the number of livestock that were destroyed or lost." [(Al-Harb al-'Aalamiyyah ath-Thaaniyah by Ramadhaan Land, p.448-449) (Lit: The Second World War)]


The Hiroshima Bomb

Stated the author of the book, "al-Harb al-'Aalamiyyah ath-Thaaniyah" (p.446-447) (Lit: The Second World War), "And perhaps it is appropriate to speak about this first atomic bomb. Let us relay what was reported directly from one of the Japanese in his interview with Marcel Junod, a representative of the Red Cross, speaking about the reality of this most frightening explosion. He said: …And suddenly there appeared these intense, muddy pinkish lights, accompanied by an unnatural tremor. This was immediately followed by an asphyxiating wave of heat and violent winds that ravaged everything in their path.

Within only a few seconds, thousands of people who walked the roads or sat in the city's main streets were burned alive. A great number were then killed by the intense heat that spread all over. Others were left lying on the ground screaming in pain with deadly burns all over their bodies. Anything that had been at the point of impact – walls, homes, factories, and other buildings – was completely and totally annihilated, with all traces of these things sent hurling into the sky in a ghastly whirlwind. Trams were plucked from their steel tracks and flung as if they had lost their weight and substance. Trains were lifted off the ground along with their tracks as if they were mere toys. Horses, dogs, and livestock were all befallen with what befell the people. Every living thing had lost its life in one painful turn of events too difficult to describe. Trees were engulfed in blazing fires, rice fields lost their color, and farms crackled and burned away like dry straw.

As for the surrounding areas that escaped instant death: Homes were crumbled and only piles of wooden boards remained amongst bricks and stone foundations. Everything was crushed as if they were cardboard houses in a zone of destruction 10 kilometers in diameter. Those who survived found themselves totally surrounded by raging fires. The few people who managed to get to any type of shelter in time died painful deaths from gamma radiation within 20 to 30 days. By nightfall on the day of the blast, the blaze slowed down and then died out, finding nothing left to fuel it. Hiroshima had passed away into nothingness."

These are some of the landmarks of your civilization that you sing and boast about, and become insolent towards Islam and its Prophet with. Yet you continue intensifying every form of oppression and corruption and you go on inventing more and more weapons of destruction, annihilation, and devastation, and this – by Allah – is the utmost limit of barbaric and animalistic behavior.

( Or do you think that most of them even listen or use their intellects? They are only like cattle, rather, even more astray than that. ) [Quran 25:44]

So crown yourselves with your own bombs, including the Hiroshima bomb and its likes, and crown your leaders with them. Consider all other weapons of mass destruction as your fangs and claws that you use to prey upon wild animals and all of Mankind.

( And those who oppress shall see what kind of outcome overturns them. ) [Quran 26:227]



ABOUT THE AUTHOR
Dr. Rabee' ibn Haadee al-Madkhalee
0 Replies
 
tsarstepan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 11:34 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

I'm not prohibited from telling the truth, but I can't make stuff up about groups of people I don't like.

Go ahead. Make up as much stuff as you like. Then when some violent monster or group could attack and kill completely irrelevant and innocent third party person(s) because they got mad at what you said.

Then you can turn around and justify these violent actions...

Hypothetical justification:
"Golly gee! When they decapitated the heads off of every school child in that school bus, at least they were doing it because they were protesting my slanderous statement."

What I get from this entire thread is that we should accept, tolerate, and even applaud violent insensitivity.

I tried watching the video. Got almost two minutes into and had to shut it off. First, it's a weird thing to have a 13 minute long trailer. Don't see that often. Second, it's hysterically bad. It deserves nothing stronger then an eyeroll. I would love to see the Riff Trax guys make a commentary track but I'm afraid that some radical violent group would detonate a dirty bomb in a Cairo elementary school in protest. OF course if that happened, you'll accept the deaths as justified if not exactly applaud the terrorist attack. After all, it wouldn't be the terrorists' responsibility that innocent people died. It's the members of Riff Trax's fault for making fun of a bad movie. I'd suggest this movie get nominated for a Razzie but that might incite another 9/11 attack.... Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
tsarstepan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 11:39 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Terry Jones does bear some responsibility for the deaths of people in Libya and Afghanistan, but that doesn't mean the killers should be allowed to get away with it. You're misrepresenting my position.

Then you're doing a very terrible job making your point.

0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 11:42 am
@engineer,
You'll have to ask the grand jury about that. Although the suspicion is that once Assange is in Sweden he'll be whisked of to America to face the death penalty.

Terry Jones was not 'telling the truth as he knew it,' he was spreading malicious lies. In America Moslems are a weak set upon minority.

We don't have any problems expressing ourselves over here.

On a separate note it is regrettable if the threat of violence/disorder stops legitimate film making. And I deplore Channel 4's decision not to screen a documentary on Islam.

Quote:
Channel 4 has cited concerns over security as the reason for cancelling a planned screening at its headquarters this week of a documentary film questioning the origins of Islam.

Islam: The Untold Story, which claimed there was little written contemporary evidence about the origin of the religion, sparked more than 1,000 complaints to Channel 4 and the media regulator after it was broadcast two weeks ago.

Its presenter, the historian Tom Holland, was also the focus of substantial criticism, as well as abuse, on Twitter.

The channel said in a statement on Tuesday: "Having taken security advice we have reluctantly cancelled a planned screening of the programme, Islam: The Untold Story. We remain extremely proud of the film, which is still available to view on 4oD."

A Metropolitan police spokesperson said the force had no knowledge of the event or the decision to cancel it.

However, sources close to the channel said the screening had been cancelled after advice was taken from "relevant security authorities".

Dr Jenny Taylor, a writer and academic who had been invited to attend the screening, said it was "appalling" the event was being cancelled.

"This party was cancelled for security reasons, so this means that presumably people's lives are at risk," said Taylor, who runs the charity Lapido Media, which seeks to foster better understanding and reporting of religion in the media. Holland is one of the trustees of Lapido, which is publishing a series of books on religious affairs, the first of which is about the controversial Islamic group Tablighi Jamaat.

Taylor said media coverage was a factor in whipping up "a false storm of protest" over the programme, which she described as "a good bit of history by one of the most eminent historians in the country".

"We have got to be able to discuss history. That is the western way. That is what we do here. Every other civilisation that Tim has written about has come in for the same treatment. Why should Islam be left out?"

Among those who criticised the programme was Inayat Bunglawala, who debated with Holland on Twitter. Bunglawala also blogged about the programme, accusing Holland of "bizarre conjecture About Islam's birthplace".


http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/sep/11/channel-4-cancels-screening-islam
Foofie
 
  2  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 11:53 am
@izzythepush,
As an American, I am concerned about this type of film that reflects less than American feelings of all citizens being considered of equal ability:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_of_a_nation
If any Europeans have concerns about other types of questionnable speech, I prefer to focus on the problems right here in the U.S.A.
If you think that the freedom of speech, in the U.S. can adversely affect Europe, then I think Europe needs to become more insular, and promulgate the reality that Europe is too sophisticated to be associated with the U.S. in our different ways.

All you Europeans may stop wearing jeans and tee-shirts and baseball caps. Also, do not watch western movies. Stop watching Hollywood movies.

Oh yes, also please allow Muslim girls in France to wear the head covering in school, like it is allowed in the U.S. And, stop calling Pakistanis in London "Pakis."

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 11:56 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
If you don't know the American ambassador to Libya was killed yesterday, by a mob angry with the USA for allowing Terry Jones (not of Monty Python, but the Koran burner) to distribute a film mocking the prophet Mohammed.


Muslims are bad news.

Remember when the Muslims gang-raped a CBS reporter in Egypt, and al-Jazeera refused to condemn it?



izzythepush wrote:
If you've not seen any of it, it's badly acted, chock-full of inaccuracies and seems to have no purpose other than to insult Moslems.


A laudable goal.



izzythepush wrote:
Now another American has died as a result of Terry Jones actions.


Not at all. Those Americans died as a result of Muslims.



izzythepush wrote:
Is it time for America to introduce legislation banning the preaching of hate similar to laws in Europe?


America is a free country. You don't get to prevent Americans from saying whatever we feel like saying, anymore than you get to tell us we can't carry a gun for self defense.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 12:01 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:
To me, it's the equivalent of shouting "Fire" in a crowded theater.


You're wrong. It's not even close.



edgarblythe wrote:
The man who inspired this thread is happily promoting a war with Islam.


A war that is long overdue.



edgarblythe wrote:
Why should he be allowed?


Because he's a free American, and you don't get to violate his rights.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 12:03 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
There seems to be no other point to this film other than insulting Moslems. It's not even a critique, it's just an out and out assault.


Outstanding! More please.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  4  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 12:03 pm
@Irishk,
Irishk wrote:

Interesting. What would have happened if someone in the UK had made this 'movie'? Arrest and prison?

Is mocking allowed?

Good question for izzythepush.

Would the UK have imprisoned Terry Jones? After all, Pakistan imprisoned a 14 year old girl for blasphemy. Is this what societies should be doing?
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 12:05 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
Terry Jones does bear some responsibility for the deaths of people in Libya and Afghanistan


No he doesn't. It's not his fault that Muslims are running around acting like Muslims.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 12:07 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
trying to extradite Julian Assange (albeit in a rather roundabout way) for publishing the truth about American war crimes.


No such war crimes. They want him for disseminating national secrets.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  6  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 12:19 pm
Best Tweet:

Quote:
John Lundin @johnlundin

A Jewish idiot makes a film, a Christian idiot promotes it, Muslim idiots kill over it, and Republican idiots condemn Obama.


Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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