23
   

Does freedom of speech excuse preaching hate?

 
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 12:47 am
@msolga,
Quote:
How could a country that cherishes such freedom be so willing to support dictators all too eager to deny that same freedom to their people? Even President Barack Obama, who spoke so eloquently about dignity and freedom in his 2009 Cairo speech, disappointingly dragged his feet when it was time to decide between Mubarak and the people rising up for that very same freedom and dignity.


Nonsense. Obama put hard pressure on the Egyptian Army to not massacre the protesters. Without that pressure, the Egyptian revolution would have failed with massive bloodshed.

We did the same for the Philippines once upon a time.

And we have welcomed the rise of democracy in other allied dictatorships (for instance South Korea and Indonesia).



Quote:
Anti-US sentiment has been born out of many grievances – support and weapons for such dictators as Mubarak


Sometimes during the Cold War it was necessary to support bad people in order to further the fight against an even greater evil.

But we haven't been supporting any dictators since the end of the Cold War.



Quote:
unquestionable support for Israel in its occupation of Palestine


It is not so much that our support is unquestionable. It is more the reality that Israel are indisputably the good guys. Questions are asked, but the answer is always "let's support the good guys".



Quote:
the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq


If the Muslims didn't want that to happen, they shouldn't have done 9/11.

And it is pretty silly for them to complain that we supposedly support dictators, and then turn around and complain that we overthrew a dictatorship and replaced it with democracy.



Quote:
and drone attacks in Pakistan and Yemen that kill more civilians than intended targets. ...


As above, if they didn't want that to happen, then they shouldn't have done 9/11.

If they'd like, we could replace the precision drone strikes with Vietnam War style carpetbombing with fleets of heavy bombers.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 12:55 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:
I don't "approve" or condone the use of violence by one group against another... be it wars & occupations of other countries by stronger ones, the 9/11 attacks, drone attacks that kill more civilians than supposed "terrorists", etc ....

The only circumstances in which I'd "approve" of fighting is in self defence, if a country is attacked by others. (Almost a thorough a pacifist, not 100%)


Those drone attacks are self defense. We are defending ourselves from the group that did 9/11.
roger
 
  2  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 01:00 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:


My views about the ongoing wars in the middle east, etc, are not because I support one "side" over another. It has much more to do with a total abhorrence to war mongering & the impact it has on the lives of ordinary people.
You can choose to believe that or not.


No, I cannot choose to believe that any more than I can choose to believe anything put out for organized religions. I do not believe you, and it is not a matter of choice.

As for not supporting one side over another, I do think you actually believe that. It does seem that your perception of what constitutes terrorism does vary considerably depending on who is the perpetrator and who is the victim. You have been deadly consistant in the decade or more we've been posting on the same forums.
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 01:12 am
@oralloy,
Last time I looked, oralloy, those particular people in the far reaches of Pakistan & Yemen had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11.
Most of those who have been killed by the drone attacks have been civilians. Some of the poorest people in those two countries.
And they don't like the US because of these attacks. Is that at all surprising?
What harm can those civilians actually do to you, with nothing like the might of the US?
Can you not see that the attacks on them are disproportionate to the threat they could actually pose to you?
snood
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 01:20 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

And yet you won't wager on the outcome of the election.




Don't change the subject. You're too cowardly to say in the open the things you regularly say to people here. I would looove a chance to speak to you in person. Just for the interest to me as a behaviorist and student of human nature, of course.
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 01:26 am
@roger,
Quote:
I do not believe you,

OK, you believe I'm a liar then.
Thank you for that, Roger.
Quote:
It does seem that your perception of what constitutes terrorism does vary considerably depending on who is the perpetrator and who is the victim.

You're quite right about my sympathy for "victims". The perpetrator is generally far more powerful than the victims.

If you choose to believe I'm a liar, then I can't change your mind.
You might, though, (if you can be bothered to) check out some of the many threads & posts I've posted here in support of self determination, the abuse of the rights of people in Tibet, Burma, East Timor, Indonesia especially Bali, even Australian aborigines, by far more aggressive forces than the ordinary, largely powerless people, who have had to cop these attacks from much more powerful forces.
Personally, I think you might be somewhat blinkered when it comes to US accountability. I think you should try to look outside what's "good" for the US but devastating to the recipients of US foreign policies.
I can't change that. Only you can.
roger
 
  2  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 01:34 am
@msolga,
If you prefer to be thought a liar instead of having some fairly flexible perceptions, you are free to do so.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 01:39 am
@snood,
This expression of your personal animosity for me is changing the subject snood.

I don't remember meeting you "in the open" and so I am at a loss in understanding how I exhibited anything that might be considered as cowardice.

Oh, I get it, this is about me not attending the next A2K gathering.

Of course it has nothing to do with anything but being scared of meeting the big bad snood in person.

Come to Dallas alone or in a gathering and I will be happy to meet with you. If you are the same ass in person that you are in this forum I will tell you so. If you then want to reinforce your troubled manhood by taking a poke at me, I promise I will only duck.

In the alternative tell me where you live and the next time I am in that location I will be, as well, happy to meet with you and tell you that you are an ass.

Now please cut the ****...but whether or not you do I have no intention of continuing with this nonsense (coward that I am).




0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 01:46 am
@roger,
Quote:
If you prefer to be thought a liar instead of having some fairly flexible perceptions, you are free to do so.

You said you did not believe me, Roger.
That makes me some sort of liar, or a deliberate misconstruer of the truth (according to you) surely?
It has nothing to do with "flexible perceptions".
It has to do with values I genuinely believe in.
As do many other people.
Like Amnesty International, for starters ....
Something to do with human rights.
I just can't see why you don't take the human rights of ordinary people into account.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  4  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 01:55 am
Roger

You're today's tar baby.

I think you may understand why I advised Msolga that discussing a subject with her is like wading through mud.

She took strenous objection to this advice, but so be it.
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 01:58 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
And what exactly was this terrific advice you gave me, Finn?
It escapes me.
Apart from your view being the correct one?
What exactly is your problem with human rights, again?
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 02:02 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:
Last time I looked, oralloy, those particular people in the far reaches of Pakistan & Yemen had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11.


They are members of the organization that carried out the attacks.



msolga wrote:
Most of those who have been killed by the drone attacks have been civilians.


I'm not so sure of that.

But even if it's true, the collateral damage would be much worse if we carpetbombed the entire place instead of firing small missiles directly at specific targets.



msolga wrote:
Some of the poorest people in those two countries.
And they don't like the US because of these attacks. Is that at all surprising?


I don't accept that the reason they don't like us is because we defend ourselves from them.

If they were not attacking us, we wouldn't be defending ourselves against them.



msolga wrote:
What harm can those civilians actually do to you, with nothing like the might of the US?


They did 9/11. They try to blow up airplanes mid-flight. They kidnap Americans and saw their heads off. It seems likely that they just murdered our ambassador to Libya.

Not to mention their other charming activities, like pouring strong acid on the faces of six year old girls to punish them for trying to learn to read, and their wholesale eradication of priceless cultural structures.



msolga wrote:
Can you not see that the attacks on them are disproportionate to the threat they could actually pose to you?


After 9/11, not even a nuclear attack on a large population center would be disproportionate.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 02:14 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
I don't accept that the reason they don't like us is because we defend ourselves from them.

If they were not attacking us, we wouldn't be defending ourselves against them.

orallay, we are talking about some of the poorest, most desperate people on the planet.
And you say they are attacking you?
You think they might have drones, too? Neutral Confused
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 02:20 am
So, anyone discussing freedom of speech and the preaching of hate?
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 02:24 am
@Setanta,
Well you can, Setanta, after this very interesting interlude! Rolling Eyes
Please continue ....
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 02:37 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Can we have a conversation without referencing your founding fathers, this isn't the 18th Century. Lots of frothing at the mouth verbosity there Finn, because some of us in Europe are actually making our own decisions instead of being being bullied by you lot.

You must have been very upset when those same 'feckless' forces in your own country put an end to Jim Crow and lynching. Still, lots of your fascist buddies are working hard to reinstate Jim Crow, and if Romney gets in, you'll probably have a few lynchings to look forward too.

As accurate as most of your imperialist dogma, and about as well researched. Just because you make something up doesn't mean it's true. Far from our hate crime legislation being used to appease Moslems, a lot of Moslem extremists are falling foul of it, this is the most recent conviction.

Quote:
A teenager has been found guilty of posting an offensive Facebook message following the deaths of six British soldiers in Afghanistan.

Azhar Ahmed, 19, of Ravensthorpe, West Yorkshire, was charged with sending a grossly offensive communication.

He told Huddersfield Magistrates Court he accepted the message had been "unacceptable" but had denied it was "grossly offensive".

The judge said his comments were "derogatory" and "inflammatory".


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-19604735

For the record I have always said that anti-Semitism has no place in a just solution for Palestine, but why bother with the truth when you can make things up? We know how things like 'facts' and 'truth' are 'Socialist,' and you've got no time for such nonsense.

Well done for railing against the awful anti-Semitic rants that are broadcast in the Arab world, and well done for deciding that in this instance what some Palestinians say is much worse that what some Israelis do.

Quote:
On 18 July, B'tselem issued a detailed report explaining some of the reasons behind the unusually draconian approach taken against Palestinian children, many of whom have not reached 13 years of age.

"The nearly 100 per cent conviction rate stems from, among other things, the willingness of the detainees to plead guilty as part of a plea bargain agreement. The pressure to plead guilty is great because minors charged with throwing stones are held in custody until the end of legal proceedings and a regular trial could keep the detained for longer than the sentence they receive after pleading guilty, which is usually no more than a few months," the report said.

Nidal Harb, a lawyer from the Hebron region, said that the detained Palestinian children are incarcerated in "sub-human conditions." As a result, Harb said, "It is quite natural that these kids would confess to anything to rid themselves of the miserable and unbearable detention conditions."

Of the arrested, 18 were aged between 12 and 13; and 255 were between 14 and 15. Sixty per cent of the 12-13 year group received prison terms ranging from a few days to up to two months. Fifteen per cent of all the children served terms of more than six months and 1 per cent served longer than a year.

The report did not detail the cases of dozens of other children and minors who were shot dead or seriously injured during the designated period.

An Israeli military judge quoted in the report admitted that "it is a very problematic situation. Nearly all minors are convicted of stone-throwing because they have no choice but to sign a plea bargain agreement, for which the punishment is usually between one and two months in jail, and if they insist on evidence, they'll stay longer."

"Of course, it is terrible that they arrest them in the middle of the night and question them without their lawyers," the Israeli judge said.

Jewish settler children convicted of stone-throwing or even graver charges usually receive little more than a slap on the wrist, and the kid-glove treatment given to them stands in sharp contrast to the harsh and vindictive treatment meted out to the Palestinians.


http://www.ptimes.org/main/default.aspx?xyz=BOgLkxlDHteZpYqykRlUuI1kx%2fVDUOFo%2bYs4E2ehcYJpKLVO4bkp4jpdfoovadi%2bLqL5Mqv62%2fHXLzb0z0SWeXtKEngj6PHKEH%2fBNIxW6FcuNd7WbMn444BvHNS0rmo6phJJl1SS50Y%3d

izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 02:44 am
@msolga,
Oralboy prefers dogma to truth. If hate crime were made illegal he'd have absolutely nothing to say. He's the only poster who actually agrees with the message in this film.

He constantly makes things up, and ignores reputable sources preferring his own paranoid imaginings.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 02:46 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
I can live with that.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 02:47 am
@Foofie,
Quote:
I assume there are better minds than yours in the UK...


You're referring to izzythePOOP...

They still do have dogs and cats in the UK so, yeah, there are better minds there than izzy's, that isn't asking for a hell of a lot.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Sep, 2012 02:50 am
@izzythepush,
I kinda know that, Izzy. Wink

But being considered a liar, or a misconstruer of the truth (as has happened on this thread today) is quite a different matter.

I can't recall any such accusation before now.

Not nice at all!
 

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