15
   

Many people express views against Obama without being hateful bigots.

 
 
jennifermarie618
 
  0  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 04:28 am
@Setanta,
Actually, roads are built through gas taxes not income taxes. The citizens of this nation can and should organize and pay private companies to build our roads. All programs payed for through taxation CAN be privatized and that will be your argument from any libertarian. The privatization of these government "services" will produce the same (and I believe better) results than being forced regulations upon. Private charities replacing welfare is a good example. I personally believe income taxes are theft. They assume the government knows how to allocate your own money better than you. On the other hand I believe consumption taxes can be necessary and good for the economic welfare of a nation. For example, the legalization of marijuana will produce huge profits by taxation. There are libertarians who believe all taxes are theft and immoral, to each their own. Government regulates how we drive--for me that would go under the Governments role in protection of its citizens. If the regulations are to protect the lives of my fellow citizens and I then so be it. I don't know if a libertarian has told you differently on the issue of traffic regulations or if that is just your assumption based on our general principles. Lastly, what do you expect us libertarians to do exactly? Yes, we don't appreciate government regulations in every part of our lives but we do have to feed our families right? It isn't like we xan set up some quasi government of our own. We are for the Liberty of the United States of America and aren't out to create a subgroup. Libertarians view this country as our forefathers did.
jennifermarie618
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 04:40 am
@jennifermarie618,
I'd also like to point out that Libertarianism is a philosophy for our government just as the Republicans and Democrats have a philosophy. I'm sure every Republican doesn't agree with all of the policies and regulations of the Democratic President but it doesn't seem like you expect them to run off attempting to create their own country with laws and policies they agree on. As you can see, the ending to your statement was a bit silly. It's almost as if you expect libertarians to start a revolution or cultivate our own food or build our own roads because we don't agree with the way the government currently handles these issues. Oh and, don't confuse nutjobs with libertarians. The man in the emergency room sounded like a nutjob. An anarchist to say the least. I think you need to be educated a bit more on our philosophies. I can't link now as I am on the phone, but if you get the chance Google Capitalism Institute as a starting point Smile
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 05:06 am
@jennifermarie618,
I rather doubt that you can educate me about libertarians. You remind me of the christians who say that anyone who acts questionably is not a christian, and that therefore christians cannot be criticized on that basis.

Don't tell me about what is silly. Democrats and Republicans (of which i am neither) understand practical politics which involves negotiation and compromise. I've never seen any libertarian who was willing enough to compromise to actually take part in government. Libertarians sit smugly on the sidelines and criticize the efforts of others to make a workable society without contributing an iota to that effort. Spare me your self-congratulatory rhetoric, i'm not convinced.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 05:25 am
@jennifermarie618,
jennifermarie618 wrote:
Actually, roads are built through gas taxes not income taxes. The citizens of this nation can and should organize and pay private companies to build our roads. All programs payed for through taxation CAN be privatized and that will be your argument from any libertarian. The privatization of these government "services" will produce the same (and I believe better) results than being forced regulations upon. Private charities replacing welfare is a good example. I personally believe income taxes are theft. They assume the government knows how to allocate your own money better than you. On the other hand I believe consumption taxes can be necessary and good for the economic welfare of a nation. For example, the legalization of marijuana will produce huge profits by taxation. There are libertarians who believe all taxes are theft and immoral, to each their own. Government regulates how we drive--for me that would go under the Governments role in protection of its citizens. If the regulations are to protect the lives of my fellow citizens and I then so be it. I don't know if a libertarian has told you differently on the issue of traffic regulations or if that is just your assumption based on our general principles. Lastly, what do you expect us libertarians to do exactly? Yes, we don't appreciate government regulations in every part of our lives but we do have to feed our families right? It isn't like we xan set up some quasi government of our own. We are for the Liberty of the United States of America and aren't out to create a subgroup. Libertarians view this country as our forefathers did.


I didn't say a thing about what taxes pay for highways. You're using a straw man. I see no reason to assume that the "privatization" of services currently provided by the government, especially something as expensive and complex as a highway system would be more efficient, and especially scorn the idea that it would be cost efficient. Private enterprise is out to make a profit. Furthermore, if you eliminate government regulation, a cherished libertarian ideal, the private companies who would be called upon to build and maintain highways would rob us blind, and we would have no recourse to rectify the abuse.

I have never seen any example of private charity meeting even a significant fraction of the needs which ADC type programs provide. This is just more self-deluding propaganda. The stock market in 1929 was overvalued and under-capitalized and unregulated. Private charities were overwhelmed in a matter of weeks. Americans simply don't donate enough money to charities for them to step into the breech. It is a matter of indifference to me how you regard income taxes--you benefit from their collection and the subsequent disbursement of the funds while you sit back and whine about them.

There is absolutely no basis upon which to claim that contemporary libertarians view this country as did our "forefathers." That's just more self-congratulatory propaganda. Quite apart from the inability of those who rant about liberty to distinguish between freedom and license, the founders of this nation attempted to create a framework which would be flexible enough to endure and sustain the nation without being so foolish as to think that their experience of society would still be valid two hundred years later.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 07:18 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
I've never seen any libertarian who was willing enough to compromise to actually take part in government. Libertarians sit smugly on the sidelines and criticize the efforts of others to make a workable society without contributing an iota to that effort.


Interesting.

Have you forgotten BoGoWo? Bo's an anarchic Libertarian - very very active in community activities here - making great contributions to our city - sits on city and neighbourhood committees as well as being active in Libertarian activist groups . He's not sitting on the sidelines and he is certainly not smug.

I have a couple of other friends who are Libertarian much in the way Bo is.

The one thing they all seem to have in common is that they're also bike activists.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  3  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 07:24 am
@jennifermarie618,
jennifermarie618 wrote:
Libertarians view this country as our forefathers did.


you do tend to clump libertarians as if they're a group of people with the same beliefs. It's not the reality out in the world.

There is a huge range of libertarian beliefs and practices. There are libertarians on the right, libertarians on the left, libertarians in the centre, libertarian anarchists, libertarians who have some beliefs on the right and some on the left etc etc etc

Heard a good interview with Gary Johnson last night - he describes himself as being to the left of Mr. Obama on most social issues and to the right of Mr. Romney on most financial/economic matters. He believes he's cutting into Mr. Obama's votes in some states and Mr. Romney's in other states - based on what is of greater concern in different regions. He'd be considered a Libertarian in some countries. In Canada, he falls straight into the description of the Green Party.
parados
 
  6  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 07:39 am
@jennifermarie618,
Quote:
The citizens of this nation can and should organize and pay private companies to build our roads. All programs payed for through taxation CAN be privatized and that will be your argument from any libertarian.

So if citizens organize it will work better than government.

What do you think it is when citizens come together as a group and decide a way to collect money and pay for things that benefit the group? It's government. A group of people come together and set up a plan of how to do things.

What happens when the newly organized government allocates money in a way you don't like. You complain how government doesn't work and want citizens to organize (and form a new government.)

You don't see the flaws in your circular argument, do you?
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 07:46 am
@jennifermarie618,
jennifermarie618 wrote:
The citizens of this nation can and should organize


looks like you're setting up a government, one way or another
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 07:47 am
@parados,
ah sorry
didn't see that I was dancing on your feet
Very Happy
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 07:50 am


Is it possible for Obama to express his views against challengers without being a hateful bigot?
tsarstepan
 
  2  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 07:57 am
@H2O MAN,
Yes it's possible for Obama to express his views against challengers without being a hateful bigot but most of those persons expressing their antiObama views here at a2k (including you yourself h20) do so using sharp vitriolic and fearmongering terms that clearly do more then imply a deep resentful bigotry that can't be ignored. And the funny thing is that it's clear that you know that. And you flaunt it often.
gungasnake
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 08:10 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
However.... there are things that people are saying here and elsewhere that clearly cross the line from civic discourse, to racism and hatred. For example...

Quote:
The concept that he wants to destroy the US is what is scaring the hell out of me. His mindset is so foreign to anything that most people in the US have experienced, that most people cannot even comprehend it.


Quote:
This philandering, inebriated African socialist, who raged against the world for denying him the realization of his anti-colonial ambitions, is now setting the nation’s agenda through the reincarnation of his dreams in his son.


This whole Obama isn't American thing is really out of line. Just to be clear I am fully behind people's right to say such things. It is free speech. But people who brandish their rights to attacking President Obama for being a foreign manipulator shouldn't whine when they other people call them racists. Free speech cuts both ways.


Problem is, that from a perspective of pure logic, the only way I picture myself doing most of the things I'v e seen Obunga do in the last four years, is if my intention was to directly harm the United States and reduce its status in the world.

If that makes me a racist, so be it.
djjd62
 
  2  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 08:12 am
@tsarstepan,
as i always say, if you got it, flaunt it
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 08:12 am
@tsarstepan,

Obama has been the most racist and outspoken bigoted president that
this country has ever seen. He perpetuates the hate for his own pleasure.

You know this and you willingly support it.
tsarstepan
 
  3  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 08:47 am
@H2O MAN,
Your insane level of hyperbole is plain out and out goofy and solely based on absolutely no basis in facts or reality.
H2O MAN
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 08:49 am
@tsarstepan,


I see that you have a big problem recognizing and accepting facts - sad for you.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  4  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 09:02 am
@billyodisciple,
billyodisciple wrote:

I call Obama.. OreO.... and since he took the White House I add the acronym WH-OreO...
As for Mitt, I play on his governorship state... i.e., Massa-two-shits Mitt I also call him Mitt Romneytail.... and I do a parody of the Peter Cottontail lyrics replacing key words.... Flippity- Floppity, in place of Hippity- Hopppity...

You must be a scream at parties.
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 09:23 am
@joefromchicago,
That goes really well with your avatar. There's a certain tone that's imparted...
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 10:24 am
@jennifermarie618,
Quote:
Obviously the reason I stated I'm a libertarian is to show I don't have a bias on either side.
Jen I'm not so sure "obviously" is appropriate. A libertarian could overall have slight leanings one way or t'other or even very strong leanings on specific issues though likely on opposite sides
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 10:56 am
@dalehileman,
Libertarians have a strong libertarian bias.
 

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